TWEAKING THE BIG TRADE

Posted by: Steve Toll
08/19/12 10:40 am EST

The recent trade that added Andrew Bynum to the Sixers didn’t have to include Andre Iguodala to Denver.  Furthermore, two guys who project to be good NBA starters, Nik Vucevic (Why didn’t ORL want Moultrie?) and Maurice Harkless (who from a previous article, I am quite high on) along with a 1st round pick were sent out along as well.  Unless you’re LAL or Miami, draft picks are vital and necessary pipeline to franchise success.  This trade should of been a thankful farewell to Thaddeus Young, a swift kick in the rear to Evan Turner.

First, the most positive aspect of the trade was it saved Doug Collins and/or Rod Thorn from trading Dre for Rudy Gay or Monta Ellis.  Gay is massively overpaid and Ellis is overpaid and has been average since his moped accident.  Secondly, it essentially removed Nick Young and Kwame Brown from many competitive minutes.  Those two facts, will be but shouldn’t be overlooked this season.  The truth is, keeping Young-Brown out of the lineup and not trading for Gay/Ellis makes this a good trade, unfortunately the 7-6 facilitated a trade where they came out a distant 3rd out of 4 teams.

 
 
 
To get Andre Iguodala, an All-Star, Olympian, 2nd best wing defender in the NBA and arguably a Hall of Fame player through his first 8 seasons, Denver gave up nothing.  Afflalo is an average 27 year old SG and Al Harrington is a 32 year old forward who hasn’t been good since 2003-2004.  Together they are owed a combined $14.5 million this year.  In a best case scenario, Afflalo and Harrington will produce 5 wins this season.  Seriously, Denver would have traded Afflalo and Harrington for absolutely nothing in return if they could have found a team to jettison them to.  Neither player is good on defense, Harrington is a 4 inch taller Nick Young and Afflalo’s production can be had for much less than the nearly $8 million a year he is paid.  Iguodala who makes an equal salary to those two guys is likely to produce 10 wins this season.
 
For those reasons I ask, why didn’t the Sixers trade Thad Young and Evan Turner instead of Dre.  
 
The short answer is because Denver has a much better GM than Philadelphia.  Masai Uriji has proven to be quite a good GM in his time with the Nuggets.  While he wouldn’t of thrown in Kenneth Faried to Philadelphia,  if the pressure was on, he’d of sent an expiring deal and taken Jason Richardson to acquire Iguodala.
 
Think of it like this, Denver got a phone call and was told Orlando wants Arron Afflalo, Al Harrington and a protected 1st round pick as part of a 4 team trade.  Masai Uriji, Denver’s GM,  being a smart guy didn’t just say, “Done, we will take literally anyone but Kobe, Jameer, Hedo, and Big Baby”, his actual response was, “We just signed these guys.  They’re valuable pieces, a draft pick too?  This better be a good deal for me”

He was told Andre Iguodala and he probably said something like, “hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm let me think on it and I’ll call you back” then proceeded to rip his shirt off like vintage Hulk Hogan and go running around the Denver front office like a crazy person yelling “Iguodalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  I was just gifted Iguodalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa for Afflalo and Harrington, Iguodalaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!”

Now picture Doug Collins and Rod Thorn sitting in their offices sweating and stressed out because Masai didn’t just snap accept the offer. Doug & Rod begin to consider offering Lavoy Allen to Denver to sweeten the pot but thankfully for 76er fans, Collins & Thorn wasn’t able to trade Lavoy Allen because of the CBA — Lavoy can’t be moved until December 15th.  Two hours later Masai has agreed and the deal gets completed. 

What should have happened from the beginning was Thad and ET were the offer to Denver, not Iguodala.  Denver still would have done the trade.  Masai, Denver’s GM, would of played hard ball and eventually would have taken those two + $3 million cash + a second round pick and the deal would have gotten done.  Thad and ET are better than Harrington+Afflalo, plus they are cheaper and younger.  Every indication is that Thad is a starting caliber SF and decent small ball PF.  Masai would have been happy to take a flyer on ET and if things don’t work out, Denver can let him go after the season if he disappoints for nothing.  Three million cash and the 2nd round pick make this an easy decision for Nuggets.  Denver certainly takes this to rid itself of Harrington and to a lesser extent, Afflalo.  

That trade would have been a huge win for the 76ers and put them in contention for an NBA title, this season and for years to come.

For instance, Chris “Birdman” Anderson is still on the market and could be had for the veterans min.  Birdman is worth at least $7 million a year.  His stat line the past 4 seasons looks something like this 18 minutes 5.8 points (fg% 56.5), 5.5 rebounds, 1.8 blocks, .6 steals, .7 turnovers.  It is not Birdman’s fault that George Karl refused to play him more, Karl wouldn’t even play Kenneth Faried major minutes season and Faried was a top 5 per minute player last year.  Other quality veteran pickups like Tracy McGrady, Kenyon Martin and Josh Childress are still on the market and could likely be had for the veteran minimum to fill out the roster
 
It would have been a huge win for the 76ers and put them in contention for an NBA title, this season.
 
Instead of the team looking like this below…
  
Holiday, Wright, Dre, Allen and Bynum as the starting five.

With Hawes, Birdman, Nick Young, Kwame, Arnett Moultrie, Royal Ivey, Maalik Wayns as the bench players.

…and being a favorite to end up as the 2nd seed in the conference, Philly got something totally different.

Dre could/would play Point Forward when Holiday takes a breather.  Hawes, Lavoy and Birdman would play all the available PF-C minutes (65) as compliments to Andrew Bynum.  Dorell Wright has shown he can be counted on in playing 30+ minutes a night of quality basketball.  Nick Young would be limited to 25 minutes a night of strictly shooting right corner 3’s where he shoots amazing 57%, Young also hits left corner threes above 50%.  Kwame would playing a ton of scrub time because Philly would be blowing out teams on a consistent basis.
 
That isn’t what happened.  Collins & Thorn were so happy to get Bynum, they didn’t look at Denver and realize they’re giving away nothing and getting back a super elite Andre Iguodala.  Reason being, Collins and Thorn were the same guys who wanted to trade Dre for Gay or Ellis.  Much like the average, casual fan Collins and Thorn don’t think that Iguodala is awesome.  Here is what Thorn & Collins thought to themselves, “Wowzerrsssssss, Iwe’re getting a great deal here.  All I need to do is give up Iguodala….. and Vucevic + Harkless and a 1st round pick for Andrew Bynum, a potential 1yr rental, and and Jason Richardson a 31 year old, on the decline who is owed $18 mil the next 3 years — where do I sign?”

The Sixers get a serious upgrade at center and a serious downgrade at SF, the loss of 3 prospects and a player who is in direct conflict with the front offices proclamation of “Youth Movement” who takes up valuable cap space.  The difference between Bynum and Iguodala is that one is an elite creator and guy who improves the players around him, like Lebron James, while the other is not.  Bynum is quite unlikely to be able to raise the play of his teammates similarly to Iguodala.  How many more wins can you expect to get from Andrew Bynum compared to Iguodala?  The answer is none.  This wasn’t a franchise changing trade the way it’s being portrayed in the local media and in the minds of fans.  It was a Hail Mary thrown out of desperation with time and downs still on the clock.

In the end though, at least Philly didn’t end up with Rudy Gay or Monta Ellis.


 


 
 
 

77 Responses to “TWEAKING THE BIG TRADE”

  1. Josh B.
    19. August 2012 at 12:51

    When exactly has Andre Iguodala made the players around him better? What’s your empirical evidence demonstrating this? I think you’re mistaking “elite complimentary player” for “playmaker”.

  2. Matt
    19. August 2012 at 13:16

    How the hell is a guy who averaged 15 points 5 assists and 6 rebounds per game (career numbers) with no rings or even eastern conference finals appearances a future HOFer? Plus they had to get rid of Iggy, for leadership reasons, if they wanted to have Bynum be “the man”, your arguments suck.

  3. Sean
    19. August 2012 at 13:24

    This is why everyone thinks philadelphia has the dumbest fans in sports. Did you just mention Andre Igoudala and Hall of fame in the same sentence? And Birdman is worth 7 mil a year?

  4. margiggio
    19. August 2012 at 13:47

    Steve Troll should’t write for the only purpose of provocating reaction. The Iggy trade was a no brainer. As Sixers fans, we shoul be dancing. This is an unreal deal!!! And the Sixers will keep Bynum. Steve Troll vs rest of the world is not a good idea of journalism.

  5. Jacob
    19. August 2012 at 13:54

    Seriosusly do you just write, to rile people up

  6. ken
    19. August 2012 at 14:13

    steve theres a reason that with iguodala we were expected to be a 7-8 seed but with bynum(who has thrown ot there very strong hints that hes guan resign with the team) we are going to be a top 4 seed and have a very good chance of making it to the eastern conference finals something we never did with iguodala. yes it would have been nice to keep him so we have a great perimeter and interior defender but this trade was all about turning the corner of mediocricy and forgetting the past ways of trying to make this team work and taking that chance on becoming elite for a long time and the best way of doing that was getting rid of those pieces like lou and andre and we did. btw because of this trade we are now the youngest team in the league so yes we are still continuing our “youth movement” overall this trade was a big success so sometimes you gota stop nitpicking on what shoulda or coulda happened and just be happy that this team is taking a step in the right direction, not being stuck in mediocricy, and be a little optimistic about this trade and not be a negative nancy

  7. Steve Toll
    19. August 2012 at 14:24

    John B,

    There is no empirical evidence but if I was talking about Lebron instead of Iggy you wouldn’t disagree. If i was a betting man, I’d wager you have no empirical evidence that shows Lebron makes his teammates better…..

    Matt,
    I’ll take talent over leadership everyday. Basketball is a team sport and Iguodala hasn’t had very good teammates compared to his competition.

    Sean,
    Please read “An Ode to Dre” before you attack a fanbase thay is both highly intelligent and passionate compared to the rest of the Nation.
    Birdman is worth 7 million a year, George Karl is well known for his terrible minute distribution. Please let Philadunkia know why George Karl played Al Harrington more minutes than Birdman and Faried combined this year?
    Harrington Win Share per 48: .088
    Faried Win Share per 48: .212
    Birdman win share per 48: .183

  8. John
    19. August 2012 at 14:50

    Iggy is nowhere near HOF status, but I do like him as a player. If I had the opportunity to keep Iggy, and get rid of Thad then I would. I just do not think that was in the cards for the sixers. Denver doesn’t want Thad because they have Gall and brewer. Also, Thad’s bad contract extends to 2016. I think the sixers lucked out on this trade, even if Bynum doesn’t sign an extension. Iggy is way overpaid, and although I like Harkless and Vucevic, they are role players. Losing a first round pick in 2014 could be painful. When looking back at the trade, the sixers and the nuggets both got great deals for now and the future.

  9. T. Martin
    19. August 2012 at 16:03

    Philly probably already saw the best years of Igoudala’s career. (he may find more success as a third or fourth option on a better team but he has likely peaked as a player and that is an elite defender but a SG that simply can’t shoot) He’s probably not resigning with Denver just like he probably wasn’t going to resign in Philadelphia. So if Bynum does re-up then the Sixers have essentially traded one more year of an elite defender (who still got routinely beat in crunch time by elite scorers) for six years of a guy who’s suddenly and inarguably the best center in the Eastern Conference. And they didn’t given up Moultrie. And they opened up minutes for Turner to sink or swim once and for all. I could go on and on but I’ll stop there.

  10. T. Martin
    19. August 2012 at 16:04

    One more thing, to even speculate that Igoudala is worth ten wins on any team in an 82 game season is ludicrous.

  11. Joe
    19. August 2012 at 16:32

    Are you serious? I would take Thad Young and Evan Turner over an Andre Iguodala any day (even in evan is a bust). Sure Iggy is a role player but he didn’t fit in the sixers system he’s not a great shooter or offensive player he’s known more for defense. He never could lead that team or make the plays or shots that sealed or won the game. This is a win win for the sixers with the trade as is. They get a big man who they can dump he’s a flop plus it gives one of the younger players a chance to step up.

  12. Jason
    19. August 2012 at 17:11

    I’m sorry but this article is embarrassing. I like the concept of having Iggy and Bynum as I feel Iggy would definitely defer to Bynum as the leader and #1 option. Iggy is an ideal Pippen role to somebody else’s Jordan. Or in the Bynum scenario, early year Bryant to Shaq mold. Unfortunately, the lack of factual information and common sense has derailed the validity of this article and the notion of having both on the same team until a more qualified journalist attempts it.

  13. hmmmm
    19. August 2012 at 17:28

    what a bad article…. and I mean bad

  14. Steven Toll
    19. August 2012 at 17:59

    Ken,
    If you think with Iggy, Philly is a7th/8th seed and with Bynum, a top 4 seed then you’re saying Bynum is worth 5+ wins more than Iguodala in the regular season. Fact: Bynum has yet to be more productive in any regular season than Iguodala

    John,
    Iguodala is in fact underpaid based on production. Thad is a SF and certainly worth his contract in the regular season even as an undersized PF. The playoffs are another story.

    T. Martin
    Iguodala is still at his peak as a player, he is also more likely to resign in Denver than Bynum in Philly. Turner is a PG, and Jrue is still on the team, so minutes were not opened up for him.

    Joe,
    Even the most die hard hater of my writing wouldn’t agree with Thad > Iggy which you just proclaimed. Iguodala hit 39% on 3pt attempts this year and Coach K decided his should be on the Olympic team. Iggy is 28th in total points and 15th in total assists since he entered the league, I apologize he isn’t more productive on offense. Also, what system did Philadelphia run this year on offense? If Iggy can’t win games, who made those free throws against Chicago during the playoffs?

    Jason,
    Billy Madison lost puppy rant

  15. Matt
    19. August 2012 at 18:04

    Steve Toll
    19. August 2012 at 14:24
    John B,

    There is no empirical evidence but if I was talking about Lebron instead of Iggy you wouldn’t disagree. If i was a betting man, I’d wager you have no empirical evidence that shows Lebron makes his teammates better…..

    Matt,
    I’ll take talent over leadership everyday. Basketball is a team sport and Iguodala hasn’t had very good teammates compared to his competition.

    Sean,
    Please read “An Ode to Dre” before you attack a fanbase thay is both highly intelligent and passionate compared to the rest of the Nation.
    Birdman is worth 7 million a year, George Karl is well known for his terrible minute distribution. Please let Philadunkia know why George Karl played Al Harrington more minutes than Birdman and Faried combined this year?
    Harrington Win Share per 48: .088
    Faried Win Share per 48: .212
    Birdman win share per 48: .183
    —————————————————————
    Yes so you agree with me that having the more talented Bynum is better than having the less talented Iggy. Thank you for proving my point.

  16. Coach
    19. August 2012 at 18:47

    i agree with most points made here and like the concept of the read. however i dont know how you figure “neither of them is a good defender” in reference to afflalo and harrington. harrington doesnt have his legs fron 5 years ago but still denies the ball with the best of them and afflalo is near iguodala in terms of perimeter d.

  17. Chris H.
    19. August 2012 at 18:50

    Steve, article after article after article about Dre. There HAS to be a backstory somewhere with your infatuation of him. I just don’t get it. How many true centers are there in the league right now? And before you respond with “how many elite wing defenders are in the league right now”? I ask you how much did Dre shut down Lebron, Melo, Kobe or any true elite scorers? Look I get it, Iggy is a good defender, but what have we won with him since he’s been here? Maybe he’ll get back to his driving to the basket roots with Denver, but Steve…it was time to go! Sure this trade was a win for Denver, but for what we got? I always wondered never agreed with me for my admiration of McNabb, but through you I am beginning to see how, let’s say, blinded I was. Sometimes you just have to move on…and the Sixers did, for the better!

  18. Adam
    19. August 2012 at 19:07

    Steve,

    dont u get that big men win titles? iguodala, as an 8mil per year 3rd wheel is an unbelievable player…. while iguodala as a 12-15mil per year best player on your team is a disaster of epic proportions.

    the had to move iguodala to see what evan turner is… iggy is pushing 30, that insane athleticism is going to dip every year for the rest of his career. turner very easily can replace iggys offensive production, albeit a worse defensive player, but more skilled with th ball.

    this is turners sink or swim year, and it would have just been another year of the same with iggy on the roster.

  19. Steven Toll
    19. August 2012 at 20:36

    Matt,
    I’ll take Iguodala > Bynum this season in regards to overall production. Playoffs Bynum > Iguodala, I’ll give you that.

    Coach,
    Harrignton is a 4 inch taller Nick Young, he is a Net Negative
    Afflalo had been in the bottom 3rd of SG’s in Points per Possession allowed in ISO situations the past 2 seasons, per synergy sports
    Opposing SG the last 2 seasons have put up a PER above 15 against Afflalo, per 82games.com
    Afflalo has the worst defensive rating on Denver the last 2 seasons, Basketball Reference
    Afflalo has averaged 1 steal per 63 minutes the last 2 seasons, Basketball Reference
    Afflalo has a negated adjusted +/- the past 2 seasons, per Basketball Value

    Chris H,
    True Centers: Howard, Noah, Chandler, Marc Gasol, Hibbert, Bogut, Dalembert, Pekovic, Duncan, Garnett, Brand (#1 in post defense last year), McGee, DeAndre Jordan, Gortat, Greg Monroe, Demarcus Cousins, Camby, Okafor, Perkins
    Iggy didn’t sign Brand to his max deal, draft Holiday > Lawson, draft Turner etc etc etc
    If the team drafted better and signed better free agents, the team would have been better.

    Adam,
    Yes, I understand that BIGs win titles. Which is why with crappy teammates, Dwight Howard has led the Magic to 5 straight NBA titles………
    Is it Iguodala’s fault that he was the best player on Philadelphia since the day he was drafted?
    Nothing about what you said about ET is true. Iggy scores more efficiently, passes better, and turns it over less than Turner. ET will never be the player on offense that Iggy is, and Defense isn’t even close.

  20. Gary
    19. August 2012 at 20:41

    Steve……

    To say the 76ers came at as 3rd or 4th in this trade is plain wrong. You realize your the first one to say THE FIRST ONE. Andre was not going to sign again with philly like you say. Anyone could tell by his expressions during/after the season he was ready to go. Anyone who watched the intro press conference for Bynum could see that he is interested “leaning” towards signing with philly.

    Dre did some things for us yes, he was my 3rd favorite player on this team. But we have a legit starting center, and we have minutes to give to some young guys that otherwise didn’t have them. Now we can truly see what we have in Jrue and E.T. Before they had to share the ball with Dre since it was such a large part of his game.

    If Bynum doesn’t stay then we open up even more space for the free agency period which many thinks will be stronger than the one we just had.

    It’s a win/win, and I think your letting your feelings for a player who was here for a long time interfere with rational thinking.

  21. Fu
    20. August 2012 at 03:09

    Steve,

    Comparison is not reason. You may spend nights and days trying to demonstrate that AI2 is a better player on any specific aspect of the game, he just did not fit the 7-6 as a leader to compete for the championship. I have the highest respect for this player, but the team was going nowhere with him and had to move on.

    While I like you provoking idea that Sixers management may have been able to keep Iggy and get a star center in Bynum in the same time (which is not completely absurd as such), you need to stop your reasoning here and avoid loosing any further credibility in defending AI2 (I emphasize the 2) as he was the original AI or any other genuine superstar capable of carrying a team to the Finals.

  22. ken
    20. August 2012 at 03:28

    steve i understand that bynum hasnt been the most healthy player in the league but since when has iggy led us to higher than a 6 seed while on the sixers as our quote “superstar” and even though bynum has had kobe and pau he was a crucial part of their 2 championship runs of recent. and i kno that im taking an educated guess that bynum will take us to a top 4 seed and you can use your stats all you want but if a player(iggy) that you consider the superstar for a team for 8 years cant get your team past the 6th seed he needs to go and the team needs to start going in another direction and not even you with your stats can disagree with that

  23. Chris
    20. August 2012 at 09:36

    This has to be a joke?

    We’ve been a perennial .500 team and your idea was to keep Elton Brand and Iguodala around? You throw out numbers as though we are a 60 win team.

    We’ve barely kept our heads above water.

  24. Justin
    20. August 2012 at 09:50

    I’m an Iguodala fan. I think he’s underrated and under-appreciated in Philly, but trading Thad and ET over Iggy isn’t a better scenario by a long shot. Whatever your feelings on Iggy, you can’t argue that this trade wasn’t a net-positive move for the sixers. Post-trade, they’re significantly improved and now have some real scoring weapons, along with the best center Philly has seen since Moses.

    I’ll miss Iggy and wish him the best in Denver, but this trade maintains Philly’s young core and added some serious talent. I’m pumped for the season.

  25. Bryan
    20. August 2012 at 10:48

    Did you really say you’d wager there’s no empirical evidence Lebron makes his teammates better? Umm, his entire time in Cleveland he won with nobodies. Antawn Jamison? Garbage. Anderson Varajeo? Garbage. Hell, if you watched the Olympics he effortlessly got Durant, Melo and Kobe wide open threes and somehow made superstars better. Good thing you’re not a betting man.

  26. Steve Toll
    20. August 2012 at 11:14

    Gary,
    My proclamation about Iggy not resigning has everything to do with winning. The last few years, Iggy watched Philadelphia draft these guys and this was who was picked with the very next pick: Speights > Hibbert, Holiday > Lawson and Turner > Favors. Iggy would be more inclined to stay with Bynum as a teammate. The opportunity for that was there.
    Having to share the ball with a great player,who is totally unselfish, is a bad thing and been holding back Jrue and ET? That better be the case because both players have been below average NBA players so far in their careers. Hoopdata, basketball reference, 82games, basketballvalue, synergy sports, thenbageek all tell the same story about these 2 players.
    What about this article isn’t rationale?

    To whomever “Fu” is
    You’re totally right. That is why Orlando traded Dwight Howard because he wasn’t good enough to lead his team to an NBA title. Same thing with Iggy, right? See your argument doesn’t make any sense. Nobody wins in the NBA without a group of All-Star and Hall of Fame level teammates. The fear of losing credibility is something I will consider in the future, thanks for the advice “Fu”

    Ken,
    Bynum has had Kobe and Pau who are both Top 50 all time NBA players. How did Kobe do when Shaq left? How was Pau in Memphis? The answer is both were superstars who couldn’t lead their teams anywhere without Superstar teammates. That isn’t me bring negative, that is a fact of winning in the NBA.

    Chris,
    You are only as good as your weakest link.

    Justin,
    What good is being young if you’re not a good basketball player? Turner is not good. Thad needs to play SF to reach his potential (hint: he is a SF). Collins has no intention of playing Thad at SF by all indications.
    Post Trade, How are the 76ers significantly better? How many wins do you expect to get out of Bynum compared to Iggy+Vucevic?

  27. Steve Toll
    20. August 2012 at 11:36

    Philadelphia was 7-12 (36.8%) in games that Iguodala missed the past 2 seasons
    Philadelphia was 69-60 (53.5%) in games that Iguodala played in the past 2 seasons

    LAL was 24-10 (70.5%) in games that Bynum missed the past 2 seasons
    LAL was 74-40 (64.9%) in games that Bynum played the past 2 seasons

  28. Ryan Hill
    20. August 2012 at 12:01

    Its really simple.. Iggy had player option for 15 million. He could have played the season and walked for nothing. To think the Nuggets would have just taken turney or thad is stupid. Watch the second half of last year. ET stepped up and can play a similar role that Iggy did. We can spread the floor now and have tons of 3 pt shooters. If Iggy opted in for 15 million next year they probably would have a harder time paying Andrew

  29. Sam
    20. August 2012 at 16:28

    this article doesn’t even deserve a response. you can respond to this after the season, when ET has a better year than Iggy ever has.

  30. JT's Hoops Blog
    20. August 2012 at 17:04

    First I see that you over value Andre igoudala and you undervalue Al Harrington and Arron Aflalo. Andre Igoudala is the most overrated player in the league. He’s a guy that play solid defense and is a decent passer, but far from deserving the All Star status that he currently enjoys and the money that comes with it. For three straight years, his scoring average has gone down–something that his team desperately needed to do, but he chose not to. Instead he deffered to players that should not even have the ball to begin with. can’t even believe this guy was even compared to Scottie Pippen.

  31. Jonathan
    20. August 2012 at 18:20

    So, did you just compare Andre Iguodala to Lebron James? If so I am once again blown away by your opinion of basketball! I didn’t even read the other comments I’m sure I’m just repeating what people say. Trading Iguodala is more than just swapping players. This provides an opportunity for the younger players to step up and grow. Also, you seem to never think of potential and growth in your articles. This team is young, they will get better. Jrue Holliday, Evan Turner, Thad Young, and Bynum will all be better this season. Turner showed flashes of greatness last year, do I think he will be great? No. But do I think he’ll be an above average starter? Yes.

    In conclusion I think you just need to take a step back and look for the positives in the Liberty Ballers. You seem to always extract the negatives and then exaggerate them.

  32. John
    20. August 2012 at 18:33

    Steve,

    Did I just read that you would take Iggy over Bynum? I try to respect others opinions, but you are way off base. Nobody would ever say… we need to double Iggy on D, or I am not driving to the lane because Iggy is down there. Sorry, you wrote a very bad article and now you are trying to justify your reasoning. You are just digging yourself into a deeeper hole.

    John

  33. mike
    20. August 2012 at 18:53

    Denver fan here: Almost no chance you were getting this trade from Denver without Iguodala. Karl and the Denver Front office were ONLY looking for a significant upgrade especially on Defense and the reason Philly called Denver was because Denver had made it clear Iguodala was highly desirable to them (Karl apparently hoped Iguodala was the piece from trading Melo situation). Not sure why ORL holds Afflalo in such high esteem. He is a decent defending wing who can hit the open three and has OK skills at getting his own 12-15 foot jumper if you give him lots of time to dribble the clock out. As I have said on other sites Afflalo, at best, is a slightly better version of Courtney Lee who make 2.5 million less per season. Nonetheless you assertion that denver caves is likely untrue. The reason Masai is good is that he gets what he desires in a trade or he just waits it out. (Ask the Knicks)

  34. Salis
    20. August 2012 at 19:03

    LeBron dont make his teammates better????Man PLEASE!!!!!! Im done with this guy… Iggy and HOD shouldnt even be used together ever again!! The Sixers wont even retire that dudes jersey….

  35. Steve Toll
    20. August 2012 at 23:35

    Ryan,

    In my scenario, Iguodala’s contract would not conflict with retaining Bynum in the offseason

    Sam,
    Hopefully, you are correct and ET blossoms into an All-Star this season.

    JT,
    Read the comments and your tune about Afflalo will change. Harrington is terrible.

    Jonathan,
    Iguodala is the closest thing to Lebron in the NBA, other than DWade. ET is closer to being the 12th man than being an above average starter, this is a huge year for him.

    John,
    Over the course of next year and projections, absolutely. If Bynum stays healthy, the answer is different. In the playoffs, Bynum > Iguodala if both are healthy.

    Mike,
    I can assure you that Karl has no influence on decision making. Thad projects to be a very good SF, he is on equal footing with Iggy in regards to athleticism. NYK are a terribly run franchise, getting the best of them in a trade is nothing to write home about. Drafting Faried and trading Mcgee for NeNe are exceptional moves.

    Salis, i was responding to a question that asked “what evidence do you have thst iguodala makes his teammates better?”.
    I responded that there is no STAT that shows Lebron makes his teammates better, so why is it any different for Iggy? Both make their teammates better, but there is no Stat for that variable

  36. Jeff McMenamin
    20. August 2012 at 23:46

    @Steve Toll

    Steve if you really want to compare numbers (first of all the Bynum/Iguodala wins-losses comparison is erroneous) then compare these…

    Iguodala’s first 2 seasons:
    82 GS, 33 min, 9 points, 5.7 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.7 steals
    82 GS, 38 min, 12 points, 5.8 rebounds, 3 assists, 1.6 steals

    Turner’s first 2 seasons:
    14 GS, 23 min, 7 points, 4 rebounds, 2 assists, .6 steals
    20 GS, 26 min, 9.4 points, 5.8 rebounds, 3 assists, .6 steals

    You claim and I quote…”Iggy scores more efficiently, passes better, and turns it over less than Turner. ET will never be the player on offense that Iggy is, and Defense isn’t even close.”

    With extremely less minutes, and with the struggle of not having position security over his first two seasons, Turner has showed he’s more than capable of producing the numbers that Iguodala had as a Sixer. If given the correct amount of minutes and starting 82 games Turner could actually produce even more than Iguodala had as a Sixer.

    In terms of defense, yes without a doubt I’d give the nod to Iguodala. His length and athleticism is far superior to Turner’s. However, Turner is a far superior ball-handler than Iguodala and shot creator. Iguodala’s career TO average is 2.4 per game, including his third season where he averaged 3.4. Turner won’t come anywhere near that number as a starter, in fact I expect him to be among the best on the Sixers at taking care of the rock next year.

    Iguodala also shot a career low in FT’s attempted last season with 196, in 2,207 minutes on the court while Turner shot 108 in 1,716 minutes. With Iguodala gone will mean more of the offense being run through Turner, and more minutes will lead to a much higher volume of attempts for Turner.

    This is what you call a fair comparison. You totally disregard Turner’s value and instead write obsessive love affair posts as to why Iguodala should be a HOF and appreciated more. What you should really focus on with Iguodala is this…in 8 years he led the Sixers to just one playoff series win, he never was clutch, he never played a leadership role until last season, and he couldn’t handle the pressure of being the face of the Sixers franchise. Iguodala was the best player during a period of mediocrity for the Sixers. I wish him the best in Denver, but to be honest the happiest moment he gave to the Sixers organization and its fans was when he was traded for Andrew Bynum and for better or worse that’s what he’ll be remembered for the most as well. Any NBA player should be able to knock down two free-throws when the game’s on the line…I’m glad for once in his career he was able to do so.

    -Jeff

  37. ken
    21. August 2012 at 02:33

    steve im done conversing clearly you didnt read my last post correctly and answer it so ill consider that a win for me.

  38. Chris
    21. August 2012 at 09:16

    “Chris,

    You are only as good as your weakest link.”

    Not in the NBA. And if Iguodala is such a transcendent talent, he should/would have been able to lift the play of those around him (see Lebron James). I think you are engaging in a bit of sophism by first arguing that Iguodala makes his teammates better, and then offering the idea that weaker players are at fault for Iguodala’s Sixers mediocre win percentage. Which is it?

  39. George
    21. August 2012 at 10:25

    I really did think you were being antagonistic at first, but not so much now. While I disagree with almost all your articles I’ve come to look forward to them. You really do inspire argument, and some of it is a good debate. I love Iguodala and appreciate his talent as well as professionalism (truly the most under appreciated player I have ever seen). I wish we could have kept him but shipping out that youth after watching Iggy’s knees get worse is a bad idea. All that said I like Turner as a point, Holiday as a shooting guard and Thad as small forward in a perfect world but the lack of shooting with that line up will only hinder Bynum. I would love to finally see what we have with the youth, but I would much rather have my team win finally. As far as Philly’s drafting I think we can all agree it has been suspect historically, but new era brings new hope ( Philly is synonymous with positivity). I look forward to the next article, and the debate following it.

  40. Matt
    21. August 2012 at 15:50

    Steve Toll
    20. August 2012 at 11:36
    Philadelphia was 7-12 (36.8%) in games that Iguodala missed the past 2 seasons
    Philadelphia was 69-60 (53.5%) in games that Iguodala played in the past 2 seasons

    LAL was 24-10 (70.5%) in games that Bynum missed the past 2 seasons
    LAL was 74-40 (64.9%) in games that Bynum played the past 2 seasons
    ————————————————————-
    I’m guessing the worse percentage had to do with Kobe sharing the ball more. See the Sixers don’t have a Kobe so I think they should be fine.

  41. Trevor
    21. August 2012 at 16:21

    “This trade ‘should of’ been a thankful farewell to Thaddeus Young, a swift kick in the rear to Evan Turner…” how can i respect your opinion if you write things like “should of.” It’s “should have,” man. Come on, if you want people to take your writing seriously (which I’m sure no one does) you have to at least use somewhat coherent grammar.

  42. KRS1
    21. August 2012 at 18:59

    i actually enjoy the fans comments and the author defending every singe person who hates on it than actually reading these head scratching love affairs for Iggy haha
    what it comes down to in the end, the business men made a business decision that could ultimately prove to be risky but should be worth the gamble. Get fans in the seat, show us they care (changing the face of the franchise) and just try something new to get this team out of the shadow of the Eagles, Phillies and Flyers.
    Anything can happen between now and when it comes down to actually resigning Bynum. What if bynum as the main option proves to be a 25 and 12 center? Or even just 17 and 10 guy and a headache. Who knows? ill still watch every game and not be shaking my head at a team that really doesn’t have a a go to player. Seriously did we not see their collapse to where they almost didnt even grab the 8th seed? A part of me wanted them badly to just take a chance in the lottery, but iggy showed his value and got us bynum. i guess it all works out somehow.
    Lets just applaud the front office for actually trying to make this relevant Philadelphia team again and quit crying over statistics from the past. goodluck to ig in den

  43. Steve Toll
    21. August 2012 at 19:34

    Dear Jeff and Philadunkia Readers

    I sincerely hope you enjoy reading this as much as I enjoyed putting it together.

    Turner made his NBA debut on his 22nd birthday, 14 months older than when Iggy made his debut. So we can compare the first two seasons but Age is a better way to compare players season to season.  

    BUT For this argument, I’ll keep with your first 2 season analysis because I’m a nice guy.

    First, it’s FAR easier to be efficient in 25 mpg compared to 35 mpg in the NBA, especially when you player lesser competition and are older, both advantages for Turner

    Here is the 2 year comparison per Basketball Reference

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=iguodan01&y1=2006&p2=turneev01&y2=2012

    Through their first 2 seasons: Iggy True Shooting% 59.1, Turner 48.1%, which makes your scoring analysis ridiculous, putting up points isn’t as important as doing it efficiently.  Turner is terrible at putting the ball in the hoop efficiently.  Turner played 3500 minutes his first 2 seasons, 110 players played 3500+ minutes the past 2 seasons.  Only Derek Fisher had a lower True Shooting % than ET.  

    Advantage: Iggy

    Evan Turner basically led the NBA in “uncontested defensive rebounds” for all non PF-C’s in his first two years.  ET doesn’t grab offensive rebounds, the truest test of rebounding ability. 

    Through their first 2 seasons
    Iggy grabbed an offensive rebound every 28 minutes, compared to 1 per 50 minutes for Turner.
    Iggy had a 1.72:1 Assist:Turnover ratio, Turner 1.83:1
    Iggy got a Steal or Block once every 17 minutes, Turner every 28 minutes
    Iggy took a free throw once every 10.3 minutes, Turner once every 15 minutes

    Advantage: Iggy

    Remember, Iggy played 35 mpg against superior competition compared to 25 mpg for Turner who is also being 14 months older than Iggy during this “comparison”

    Now the good stuff….. Compared to guys who played significant minutes

    According to NBA reference, Iguodala produced 1 win per 410 minutes his first 2 seasons.  Turner produced 1 win per 747 minutes

    Advantage: Iggy

    As a rookie, Iggy had the 2nd highest offensive rating and 2nd lowest defensive rating on his team.  As a rookie, ET only had a better offensive rating than Spencer Hawes, ET only had a better defensive rating than Lou Williams and Meeks

    Advantage: Iggy

    In his second season, Iggy had the highest offensive rating on the team and only Dalembert (a defensive specialist) and CWebb (18-9 that year) had a better Defensive rating  In his second season, Turner had the worst offensive rating on the Sixers.  Turner had a better Defensive rating than only Thad, Lou, Meeks, Holiday.

    Advantage: Iggy

    Only Hawes in 2010-2011 had a lower Roland Rating than ET per 82games.  Turner had the lowest Roland Rating on the team this season.  Both years were Negative and a low Roland rating is a bad thing

    The past 2 seasons Turner had the worst Adjusted +/- on the team the past 2 seasons, per basketball value

    Turner is not good, in his first 2 seasons he was far below Iguodala in all things basketball.  Turner was older, played less, played against worse competition and did all this being 14 months older than Iggy.

    Now for your verbal argument:
     
    Point 1: With extremely less minutes, and with the struggle of not having position security over his first two seasons, Turner has showed he’s more than capable of producing the numbers that Iguodala had as a Sixer.  If given the correct amount of minutes and starting 82 games Turner could actually produce even more than Iguodala had as a Sixer.

    Rebuttal: Everything in my response above.  What kind of positional security should Turner get when he isn’t good at basketball?  Iguodala elevated his game in year 3 which is the same age ET was this past season in year 2 when he continued to be terrible.  Turner has done nothing that illicits a thought of “elevating his game” coming into year 3.

    Point 2:  However, Turner is a far superior ball-handler than Iguodala and shot creator. Iguodala’s career TO average is 2.4 per game, including his third season where he averaged 3.4. Turner won’t come anywhere near that number as a starter, in fact I expect him to be among the best on the Sixers at taking care of the rock next year

    Rebuttal:  Why are you talking about Iggy’s career turnover average when your dissecting the players first 2 seasons?  Answer, because it doesn’t hold any weight.  Through 2 seasons 
    Iggy had a 1.72:1 Assist:Turnover ratio, Turner 1.83:1.  Iggy played more minutes against better players, his efficiency will suffer because of that, Turners .11 advantage seems pretty minuscule when you look at it objectively.  

    Point 3: This is what you call a fair comparison. You totally disregard Turner’s value and instead write obsessive love affair posts as to why Iguodala should be a HOF and appreciated more. What you should really focus on with Iguodala is this…in 8 years he led the Sixers to just one playoff series win, he never was clutch, he never played a leadership role until last season, and he couldn’t handle the pressure of being the face of the Sixers franchise. Iguodala was the best player during a period of mediocrity for the Sixers. I wish him the best in Denver, but to be honest the happiest moment he gave to the Sixers organization and its fans was when he was traded for Andrew Bynum and for better or worse that’s what he’ll be remembered for the most as well. Any NBA player should be able to knock down two free-throws when the game’s on the line…I’m glad for once in his career he was able to do so.

    Rebuttal:  Iguodala didn’t have the luxury of picking his teammates.  Basketball is 5 on 5.  Name one team in the past 30 years that didn’t have AT LEAST 1 Hall of Famer and 1 All Star that even made the NBA finals.  The answer is, it hasn’t happened.  If Philly drafted Hibbert and Lawson, instead of Speights and Holiday, maybe the team would have been better.  What did Kobe win without Shaq?  What have Lebron and Dwight win with uninspiring supporting casts?  Garnett couldn’t win without Pierce and Ray Allen. MJ didn’t win with Pippen.  Malone and Stockton couldn’t win together.  Robinson needs Duncan and Duncan needed Parker+Manu.

    I leave you with this, here is a list of players who have played 24+ mpg the past 2 seasons.  These are the guys who produced less Win Shares Per 48 minutes.  It is quite a distinguished list.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=24&c2stat=ws_per_48&c2comp=lt&c2val=.065&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

    Sent from my iPad

  44. Steve Toll
    21. August 2012 at 19:46

    Ken,

    I’m sorry you weren’t able to extrapolate an answer from my original response. Name the All-Stars Iggy has played with in his time as a 76er and you will have your answer.

    Chris,
    Philadelphia was 7-12 (36.8%) in games that Iguodala missed the past 2 seasons
    Philadelphia was 69-60 (53.5%) in games that Iguodala played in the past 2 seasons

    George,
    Real recognize Real, thanks for reading

    Matt,
    Philly has a Kobe-Zombie in Nick Young

  45. Steve Toll
    21. August 2012 at 20:30

    Turner and Iguodala at the same age, it’s not even close

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=turneev01&y1=2012&p2=iguodan01&y2=2007

  46. Isaac
    21. August 2012 at 21:06

    @Steve Toll

    Reading through the comments and you’ve listed Brand as a “true center.” That’s just crazy. In no universe is Elton Brand – 6’9″ 255- a true center. For the record Tim Duncan is not a center either.

  47. Charles Rey
    21. August 2012 at 22:33

    Steven Toll
    19. August 2012 at 17:59
    Ken,
    If you think with Iggy, Philly is a7th/8th seed and with Bynum, a top 4 seed then you’re saying Bynum is worth 5+ wins more than Iguodala in the regular season. Fact: Bynum has yet to be more productive in any regular season than Iguodala

    PER Ratings 2012

    Andrew Bynum, LAL
    60 Games Played 35.2 MPG .594 True Shooting
    7.2 Assist Rate 12.9 Turnover Ratio 21.5 Usage Rate
    10.6 Offensive Rebound Rate 26.1 Defensive Reb Rate
    18.7 Rebound Rate 23.00 PER 390.9 Value Added
    13.0 Estimated Wins Added

    Iggy
    Andre Iguodala, PHI 62 Games Played 35.6 MPG
    .537 TS 28.9 Assist Ratio 9.8 TO 17.5 Usage
    2.8 ORR 16.4 DRR 13.2 Rebound Rate 17.59 PER
    233.8 Value Added 7.8 Estimated Wins Added

    So yes, I’d like to say Bynum is worth “4-5 wins” more than your boy. Stop using skiewed statistics and actual attempt some research. I like that you use the excuse of Iggy not having good teammates as a crunch when citing team records, but ignore the fact that Bynum has had a solid core of players around him.

    FYI, Iggy’s PER is 77th in the league. And his estimated wins added is 43. That’s below CARLOS BOOZER.

    I can’t decide if your journalistic entent is to troll. It’s obviously not to promote the Sixers. There’s a difference in disagreeing with some moves made by management and disagreeing with EVERY MOVE with terrible negativity and/or stupidity.

    Here’s the link to the PER page since you obviously cannot find it on your own:

    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics

  48. Steve Toll
    22. August 2012 at 09:43

    Here is a comparison between: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Pierce, Iggy, Turner at 23.
    You’ll notice that only Turner has issues with “Position Security”, must be bad luck.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=bryanko01&y1=2002&p2=jamesle01&y2=2008&p3=wadedw01&y3=2005&p4=iguodan01&y4=2007&p5=piercpa01&y5=2001&p6=turneev01&y6=2012

    ET is the only one of the group with a Netative Offensive:Defensive Rating. Turner took 2.3 Free Throw Attempts per 36, Iggy took 6.5 per 36 and was the next lowest guy. ET’s True Shooting % was 47.8, 6.6 points lower than the next guy, Kobe, at 54.4%.

    Scroll down to the playoffs and Turner put up a top 3 worst playoff performance over 34+ minutes a night in NBA History
    Kobe produced more wins in playoffs that year, than Turner did in the regular season and in less than half as many minutes.

    The comparison to these guys is overkill, absolutely. It is also necessary to show that at 23, Evan Turner isn’t close to being average. It’s annoying to have this conversation because there is nothing about ET to like except he would be the biggest PG in the league and could become average, maybe.

    Lastly, I am Philly fan. I was at every 76er game last year. For years, I would go alone to game to watch basketball because I am a fan. I don’t want to see ET fail but it is beyond the point of no return and I’d rather people be educated about that fact. I spend more time going over basketball than 99.99999 of the people on earth, and I don’t just do it for fun. My opinions may be totally incorrect but it’s not because I didn’t spend time doing research, analysis and video analysis. It would be because I can’t look at all the information I gather and put it together in the right way.

    Thanks for reading

    Philadelphia is paying

  49. Steve Toll
    22. August 2012 at 15:38

    Jeff McMenamin,

    Do you notice a pattern? I used Jodie Meeks as well cause I’m a fun guy

    Sixers Record with Iggy first 2 years
    30-18 in 40+ minutes, 63%
    38-44 in 30-39 minutes, 46%
    12-20 in 20-29 minutes, 38%
    1-1 in under 20 minutes

    Sixers Record with Turner last 2 years
    15-19 in 30+ minutes, 44%
    34-31 in 20-29 minutes, 52%
    25-18 in under 20 minutes, 58%

    Sixers Record with Meeks last 2 years
    28-21 in 30+ minutes, 57%
    33-25 in 20-29 minutes, 57%
    14-18  in under 20 minutes, 44%

  50. Steve Toll
    23. August 2012 at 10:45

    Jeff,
    Turner made his NBA debut on his 22nd birthday, 14 months older than when Iggy made his debut. So we can compare the first two seasons but Age is a better way to compare players season to season.  

    BUT For this argument, I’ll keep with your first 2 season analysis because I’m a nice guy.

    First, it’s FAR easier to be efficient in 25 mpg compared to 35 mpg.

    Here is the 2 year comparison per Basketball Reference

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&p1=iguodan01&y1=2006&p2=turneev01&y2=2012

    Through their first 2 seasons: Iggy TS% 59.1, Turner 48.1%, which makes your scoring analysis ridiculous, putting up points isn’t as important as doing it efficiently.  Turner is terrible at putting the ball in the hoop efficiently.  Turner played 3500 minutes his first 2 seasons, 110 players played 3500+ minutes the past 2 seasons.  Only Derek Fisher had a lower True Shooting % than ET.  

    Advantage: Iggy

    Evan Turner basically led the NBA in “uncontested defensive rebounds” for all non PF-C’s in his first two years.  ET doesn’t grab offensive rebounds, the truest test of rebounding ability.

    Through their first 2 seasons
    Iggy grabbed an offensive rebound every 28 minutes, compared to 1 per 50 minutes for Turner.
    Iggy had a 1.72:1 Assist:Turnover ratio, Turner 1.83:1
    Iggy got a Steal or Block once every 17 minutes, Turner every 28 minutes
    Iggy took a free throw once every 10.3 minutes, Turner once every 15 minutes

    Advantage: Iggy

    Remember, Iggy played 35 mpg against superior competition compared to 25 mpg for Turner who is also being 14 months older than Iggy during this “comparison”

    Now the good stuff….. Compared to guys who played significant minutes

    According to NBA reference, Iguodala produced 1 win per 410 minutes his first 2 seasons.  Turner produced 1 win per 747 minutes

    Advantage: Iggy

    As a rookie, Iggy had the 2nd highest offensive rating and 2nd lowest defensive rating on his team.  As a rookie, ET only had a better offensive rating than Spencer Hawes, ET only had a better defensive rating than Lou Williams and Meeks

    Advantage: Iggy

    In his second season, Iggy had the highest offensive rating on the team and only Dalembert (a defensive specialist) and CWebb (18-9 that year) had a better Defensive rating  In his second season, Turner had the worst offensive rating on the Sixers.  Turner had a better Defensive rating than only Thad, Lou, Meeks, Holiday.

    Advantage: Iggy

    Only Hawes in 2010-2011 had a lower Roland Rating than ET per 82games.  Turner had the lowest Roland Rating on the team this season.  Both years were Negative and a low Roland rating is a bad thing

    The past 2 seasons Turner had the worst Adjusted +/- on the team the past 2 seasons, per basketball value

    Turner is not good, in his first 2 seasons he was far below Iguodala in all things basketball.  Turner was older, played less, played against worse competition and did all this being 14 months older than Iggy.

    Now for your verbal argument:

    Point 1: With extremely less minutes, and with the struggle of not having position security over his first two seasons, Turner has showed he’s more than capable of producing the numbers that Iguodala had as a Sixer.  If given the correct amount of minutes and starting 82 games Turner could actually produce even more than Iguodala had as a Sixer.

    Rebuttal: Everything in my response above.  What kind of positional security should Turner get when he isn’t good at basketball?  Iguodala elevated his game in year 3 which is the same age ET was this past season in year 2 when he continued to be terrible.  Turner has done nothing that illicits a thought of “elevating his game” coming into year 3.

    Point 2:  However, Turner is a far superior ball-handler than Iguodala and shot creator. Iguodala’s career TO average is 2.4 per game, including his third season where he averaged 3.4. Turner won’t come anywhere near that number as a starter, in fact I expect him to be among the best on the Sixers at taking care of the rock next year

    Rebuttal:  Why are you talking about Iggy’s career turnover average when your dissecting the players first 2 seasons?  Answer, because it doesn’t hold any weight.  Through 2 seasons
    Iggy had a 1.72:1 Assist:Turnover ratio, Turner 1.83:1.  Iggy played more minutes against better players, his efficiency will suffer because of that, Turners .11 advantage seems pretty minuscule when you look at it objectively.  

    Point 3: This is what you call a fair comparison. You totally disregard Turner’s value and instead write obsessive love affair posts as to why Iguodala should be a HOF and appreciated more. What you should really focus on with Iguodala is this…in 8 years he led the Sixers to just one playoff series win, he never was clutch, he never played a leadership role until last season, and he couldn’t handle the pressure of being the face of the Sixers franchise. Iguodala was the best player during a period of mediocrity for the Sixers. I wish him the best in Denver, but to be honest the happiest moment he gave to the Sixers organization and its fans was when he was traded for Andrew Bynum and for better or worse that’s what he’ll be remembered for the most as well. Any NBA player should be able to knock down two free-throws when the game’s on the line…I’m glad for once in his career he was able to do so.

    Rebuttal:  Iguodala didn’t have the luxury of picking his teammates.  Basketball is 5 on 5.  Name one team in the past 30 years that didn’t have AT LEAST 1 Hall of Famer and 1 All Star that even made the NBA finals.  The answer is, it hasn’t happened.  If Philly drafted Hibbert and Lawson, instead of Speights and Holiday, maybe the team would have been better.  What did Kobe win without Shaq?  What have Lebron and Dwight win with uninspiring supporting casts?  Garnett couldn’t win without Pierce and Ray Allen. MJ didn’t win with Pippen.  Malone and Stockton couldn’t win together.  Robinson needs Duncan and Duncan needed Parker+Manu.

    I leave you with this, here is a list of players who have played 24+ mpg the past 2 seasons.  These are the guys who produced less Win Shares Per 48 minutes.  It is quite a distinguished list.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/psl_finder.cgi?request=1&match=combined&type=totals&per_minute_base=36&lg_id=NBA&is_playoffs=N&year_min=2011&year_max=2012&franch_id=&season_start=1&season_end=-1&age_min=0&age_max=99&height_min=0&height_max=99&birth_country_is=Y&birth_country=&is_active=&is_hof=&is_as=&as_comp=gt&as_val=0&pos_is_g=Y&pos_is_gf=Y&pos_is_f=Y&pos_is_fg=Y&pos_is_fc=Y&pos_is_c=Y&pos_is_cf=Y&qual=&c1stat=mp_per_g&c1comp=gt&c1val=24&c2stat=ws_per_48&c2comp=lt&c2val=.065&c3stat=&c3comp=gt&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&c5stat=&c5comp=gt&c6mult=1.0&c6stat=&order_by=ws

    Does anyone notice a trend? I threw in Meeks because I’m a fun guy

    Sixers Record with Iggy his first 2 years
    30-18 in 40+ minutes, 63%
    38-44 in 30-39 minutes, 46%
    13-20 in 20-29 minutes, 39%
    1-1 in under 20 minutes

    Sixers Record with Turner last 2 years
    15-19 in 30+ minutes, 44%
    34-31 in 20-29 minutes, 52%
    25-18 in under 20 minutes, 58%

    Sixers Record with Meeks last 2 years
    28-21 in 30+ minutes, 57%
    33-25 in 20-29 minutes, 57%
    14-18  in under 20 minutes, 44%

    Now here is a comparison between Iggy and Turner at 23. The first thing that comes to mind was Iguodala had no issues with “position security”

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=turneev01&y1=2012&p2=iguodan01&y2=2007

  51. Steve Toll
    23. August 2012 at 11:17

    Charles Rey,

    Tell me more about PER.
    Lou Williams put up a PER .07 less than Steve Nash,Please explain that?

    Jrue Holiday isnt top 30 in PG in PER. I bet you think he is really good too, so how do you explain that?

    PER is a boxscore metric but does get something right and I appreciate the tutorial.

    There is a reason why John Hollinger is not the 18x reigning executive of the year and it’s not because the billionaire owners of NBA teams are idiots

  52. Steve Toll
    23. August 2012 at 12:42

    Isaac,

    According to DraftExpress, the average NBA center comes into the NBA at 247lbs, a 7’3 wingspan and a 9’1 standing reach.

    Elton Brand 260lbs, 7’5.5 wingspan and 9’2 standing reach.

    All per Draft Express.

    Thanks for reading, I hope this cleared things up for you

  53. Jeff McMenamin
    23. August 2012 at 14:23

    Steve Toll,

    First of all, why did you post like 20 rebuttal comments?
    Secondly, you act like age is a determining factor on how a player is going to perform in the NBA. If this were true, there wouldn’t be 18 year olds drafted into the league every year with the top 10 picks. Actually, since we’re on the topic. Let’s go through the NBA’s past five rookies of the year.

    Kyrie Irving: Age 20
    51 GS, 30 MPG, 18.5 PPG, 3.7 RPG, 5.4 APG, 1.1 SPG
    Blake Griffin: Age 22
    82 GS, 38 MPG, 22.5 PPG, 12.1 RPG, 3.8 APG, .8 SPG
    Tyreke Evans: Age 19
    72 GS, 37.2 MPG, 20.1 PPG, 5.3 RPG, 5.8 APG, 1.5 SPG
    Derrick Rose: Age 19
    80 GS, 37 MPG, 16.8 PPG, 3.9 RPG, 6.3 APG, .8 SPG
    Kevin Durant: Age 19
    80 GS, 34.6 MPG, 20.3 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1 SPG

    So lets see…here. The combined age of the rookie of the year for the past 5 years is 19.8. Oh and what else was that? Each of them put up numbers which place them in the top tier of the league.

    I do see another trend though among these players, who were all picked in the top 5 of their draft classes. All of them started from day one when they arrived to the league, and all of them played 34+ MPG.

    But wait…when Turner came to the league as the second pick in his draft class what did he do? In his rookie year he sat on the bench for long stretches, was placed in Doug Collins’ dog house, had to deal with constant questions regarding why Jodie Meeks was an NBA starter (now he’s an end of the bench reserve for the Lakers), and generally just was really unhappy.

    Year two his attitude improved and he worked hard to become better in the offseason. He started off the season in a great way. Yet by the time February rolled around, Collins started to play with his minutes again and you could see him becoming frustrated again and making mistakes. It wasn’t until early March that Collins decided to give him his minutes again, and it was only after Meeks had sucked bad enough that he’d finally had it. It’s easy for a player like Meeks to be efficient…all he has to do is disappear on the offensive end until he’s needed for a 3-ball. Guy can’t dribble, pass, or create his own shot if his life depended on it. He couldn’t orchestrate an offensive set like Turner could which is why ultimately their roles switched at that point in the season.

    For the last 2 months of last season ultimately you saw an out of position Evan Turner finally getting minutes and he had some ups and downs, but the ups showed potentially how valuable he can be as a starter. 26 and 9 against the Celtics, 16 and 12 against the Jazz, 24 and 15 against the Knicks, 26 and 8 against the Heat…mind you once again this was playing out of position as a guard. People may claim that Evan Turner is a guard, but he’s a small forward and the only man starting at Small Forward for the past two years was going to be Andre Iguodala.

    I’m not even going to get into the “basketball reference” stats argument with you. Next season I will, but you’re trying to compare extensively a starter to a bench player. I was just simply saying, based on what he showed the Sixers mostly last season, and compared to Iguodala’s output from his first two seasons, there’s no reason to believe if given the correct amount of minutes and the opportunity to start at his correct position for an entire season then he can accomplish great things. Dre started in 68 more games than Turner his rookie year, and 62 more in his second year. And you also claim the league was more competitive then for Iguodala…When the West absolutely dominated the East back then except when it mattered! The Celtics who won the Atlantic in Iggy’s first season, had a subpar lineup of an over-the-hill Gary Payton, a before his prime Tony Allen, Paul Pierce, Raef Lafrentz, and Mark Blount. You’re telling me that, that lineup is more difficult than the current lineup Turner has had to face the past 2 years? Or LeBron James’ Heat? Or Dwight Howards Magic? Or Derrick Roses’ Bulls? Even that Hawks, Pacers, and Knicks are better than most of the teams that were in the East back than. The Heat with Wade and Shaq and Pistons with their defense ruled and there were no other true contenders. So please…never make that arguement again.

    You keep coming back to the teammates arguement with Iguodala. Iguodala isn’t a leader which is why his teams never went anywhere. When the team actually had a leader in Andre Miller, the Sixers found success but ran into the wrong team in the playoffs and for a dumb reason didn’t re-sign Miller that offseason.

    Iguodala had 3 seasons to prove he could be a team leader. 2006-07, 2007-08, and 2009-10. In ’06-’07, they missed the playoffs. In ’07-’08 they finished 40-42, but in a bad East were still able to grab the 7th seed before losing to the Pistons. And in 2009-10 they had their worse season in the past decade.

    The first season was when Iverson left, the second was his first full season playing with Andre Miller, and the third was when Miller’s not Iggy’s veteran leadership left and he had to really step up and be that guy and couldn’t.

    He’s a good player, but he’s not a leader. You can’t teach leadership. Iguodala was so bad of a clutch performer, that coaches had to find other options when the game was on the line during his eight seasons.

    My arguements are based on facts and day-to-day struggles. Not based on PER’s and ATR’s. I could throw up 50 different stat comparisons up here, but until you truly dissect a season and the human reaction that certain situations can cause to a player than you can’t really judge how great that player actually is. I guess that John Lucas’ stats show how good he actually was as a player right? Because he wasn’t abusing drugs during those years in the league? There’s a lot more to basketball than stats which is what I’m trying to prove to you.

    The bottom line is you can’t prove yourself unless you’re given the chance. Turner’s about to get that chance. Iguodala had his chance to be “the man” for the Sixers for 8 years, until fans/ownership became so tired of the stale act and traded him at his highest value…winning his first playoff series ever while having an all-star season, and winning gold for Team USA. So instead of crying over someone who really should’ve been traded 4 years ago, be happy that the new ownership who have been incredible over the past 10 months went in a different a better direction with the franchise. More often than not, teams with a dominant center win championships.

    Outside of Patrick Ewing, I can’t recall a true center in the past 20 years that didn’t win a ring. Howard vs. Bynum will be a saga for years to come.

    Turner is going to play a huge role on the Sixers next season, where Andre Iguodala will play the same role he always does…as a good complimentary player. That’s a fact.

    -Jeff

  54. John
    23. August 2012 at 16:00

    Steve,

    I am a huge 76ers fan. I agree with your evaluation of Turner. He is just not fast enough for the NBA with his height. Getting the ball in the middle with Bynum will help him out.

    John

  55. Jeff McMenamin
    23. August 2012 at 16:07

    Also Steve,

    Andre Iguodala had the luxary of being a “complimentary” player to all-star scoring machine Allen Iverson in his first 2 years in the league. Evan Turner had the luxary of having his development stunted by that same “complimentary” player in Andre Iguodala and was surrounded by players who couldn’t shoot and couldn’t create their own shot. Yeah Holiday and Lou both had their moments with their driving ability and shooting ability, but all season long it was their inconsistent play which was being talked about.

    As a team the Sixers shot just 44.8% from the field last season, placing them 15th in the league. This was the lowest out of the eight teams that advanced to the second round of the playoffs. Only the Knicks, Mavericks, Magic and Pacers shot a lower percentage out of the 2012 NBA playoff teams. The four teams which advanced to the Conference Finals all were in the top 5 of FG%. Spurs were #1(47.8%), Thunder #3(47.1%), Heat #4(46.9%) and Celtics #5(46%). Just like your argument with Iguodala, how do you expect Turner to make his teammates better and especially in only his second year in the league getting 26 ticks a game? The Sixers offense last year looked historically bad at times. There was no motion. Everyone was settling for contested mid-range jumpers.

    In 2011, guess what? More of the same. The Sixers ranked 15th in the league as well shooting slightly better at 45.9% for the year. Miami and Dallas who met in the finals were both top 5 in the league in FG% that season as well.

    You need to take a good amount of the blame off of Evan Turner, and place it on Doug Collins. He’s an incredible defense coach who knows his x’s and o’s as well as anyone, but offensively he hasn’t been able to figure out a plan that works. There’s a reason why the Sixers ranked 3rd in team defense and 22nd in team offense last season. If a better offensive system is created that is specifically designed for Turner’s strengths than he will thrive on offense next season. However, the Sixers offense was designed around the “team” concept first last season and Andre Iguodala/Lou Williams second. With the right mix of talent (check) and coaching (check) the Sixers should be able to improve drastically on the offensive end next year. Their team defense will definitely suffer from the losses of Iguodala and Brand, but in terms of scoring threats, they are now a plenty.

    Keep following PER’s and ATR’s and, but looking at the bigger picture is sometimes the easiest way to look at things. I think I’ve made myself pretty clear.

  56. Bryce
    23. August 2012 at 17:17

    Steve,

    Thank you for writing this article and taking the time to answer all of these responses. It shows that you care about what your readers think and I truly admire that. However, through all of your arguments, you only stated how much the sixers lost with iguodala, and not what they gained with Bynum.

    Now, I agree with you that Iggy was extremely undervalued by the Sixers fanbase. He was easily our best player since Iverson and gave 110% effort every time he stepped out on the court. As a fan, that’s all you can really ask for. Now, I know that you’ve given a lot of Iggy>Turner arguments and I’m not gonna disagree. Turner is not nearly as good as Iggy and I don’t think he ever will be. However, I’m sure you’d agree that Iguodala is at his prime. This year was the pinnacle of his career. It’s not gonna get much higher. With him, the Sixers were stuck in the NBA’s worst place – average.

    Certainly, ET is nowhere near his prime. One would have to assume that he will improve enough to be a solid starter at the SF position. Clearly, he will not be as good as Iggy or will be and the sixers lost a lot of skill at that spot.

    However, what about the difference between Bynum and Hawes? The best of Hawes was what we saw at the beginning of last season. He was a main player in a great opening run to start off the season. But after that injury, he never really returned to form and continued to play like a very average center.

    With Bynum? The Sixers now have a big man who, when healthy, will give near the production of Elton Brand and Spencer Hawes combined! I repeat, Bynum, an elite center, will give the type of offensive production that is similar to elton brand and spencer hawes combined! If that’s not a deal-breaker, I don’t know what is!

    I think you would have to agree that players similar iguodala are common in the nba nowadays. Rudy Gay, Luol Deng, Paul George, and even a poor man’s Lebron James are very similar types of players. Bynum? I can really only think of one player who’s as good and that’s Dwight Howard! Other than that, he’s the man, like or not.

    P.S. I think Bynum has a much greater chance of resigning with Philly than you think. He’s from NJ and always wanted to be the face of a franchise.

  57. mike
    24. August 2012 at 22:22

    seriously you had no shot with thadeus. They have 2 SF already who are at least close to equal if not better. They have plenty of bigs so he doesn’t provide anything as a combo forward. He’s just another piece while the nuggets give up their starting SG. You’re not taking the Nuggets roster construction into account. Only that you wish philly could have paired Iguodala, bynum and holiday. Not saying there was no shot you get bynum without giving up iguodala, but no shot with nuggets. Iguodala is the ONLY guy on your roster that provided an upgrade to their starting 5. Turner has zero value to the nuggets as you have outlined in your writeups of him subsequently.

    I didn’t say it was a great feat to get what they got from NYK, but they got exactly what they wanted down to waiting out a few more days for freaking MOZGOV. You were 100% giving up Iguodala or the nuggets were not a part of this deal. Name me a trade since the nuggets have been run by masai where you think they caved for something less than they wanted…

    Not sure why you would say Karl had no input on trade. Of course a coach who has been on the team for almost a decade is getting some input in star type players the team is hoping to acquire. certainly not literally Masai calling up and saying “gee george you like this trade, got some other ideas for me” but the conversation I suggested happened was around guys Karl thought would work well in his system which MOST ASSUREDLY happened as Ujiri has discussed this.

    Just to reiterate. YOU WERE 100% NOT GETTING THE NUGGETS INVOLVED WITHOUT IGUODALA. PERIOD.

  58. margiggio
    25. August 2012 at 04:58

    Dear Steve, can I dare? Your response are far better than the original article. They’re more balanced, that’s only my opinion, obviously, and more esplicative. I totally agree with you with comparison Iggy-Turner. Iggy underrated (a lot), Turner overrated, even it’s undeniable that ha has a lot of basketball talent inside him. Stats are clear and the thing about uncontested rebound is so evident that there’s no need to talk about it. But I think that the Sixers made no mistake drafting him. In a extremely weak draft class, I’m not sold on Favors (have a look at his stats and think about Millsap’s presence beside him) and I think Cousins produces good numbers on a terrible team, but it’s definitely not, and I will never become, a player of intangibles. If you want to win, get away fron him. Turner was worth the risk. And once you’ve accepted it, you must follow this road, giving him a clear chance. I’m still convinced that the Sixers did a great trade with Iggy/Bynum, but I see the risk of putting a season into the hands of two very, very, intriguing but volatile and mysterious players like Bynum/Turner. Well, one Rajon Rondo is enough for any team. Two, can become a problem. All said that, now I see your points, and I don’t totally disagree with them (I was a great fan of Iggy) but it took me to read your answers to fully understand it. The article was a little bit obscure and maybe too… ideologic. I think (again my opinion, of course) that you should be more direct and less tied to the statistic stuff. All in all, from Italy, which is my country, I’ve seen all of 66 games played by the Sixers last year, and 82 the year before, and counting. Your response where you’ve explained your feelings for the Sixers was damn good, but that should be the premise. Anyway, thank you for all this responses. As a basketball nut – like you, I think – I really appreciate your attitude and your intentions (once you explained that). I’ve changed my mind, hope to read you soon.

  59. ryan
    25. August 2012 at 15:19

    Even though Sixer fans dont wanna beleive this, it is the the cold hard truth… We didnt get better, we are simply running in place.

  60. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:27

    POINT 1:   Secondly, you act like age is a determining factor on how a player is going to perform in the NBA. If this were true, there wouldn’t be 18 year olds drafted into the league every year with the top 10 picks.

    ANSWER: Age is a determining factor.  Players generally show NBA ability at 18.  Young players are drafted on how they have produced and the expectation for improvement as they get older.  Please read these 2 articles : http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/25/age-is-just-a-varible/ and http://deadspin.com/5908998/before-steve-kerr-sends-19+year+old-players-back-to-college-he-should-try-some-academic-research-himself

  61. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:29

    POINT 2: Actually, since we’re on the topic. Let’s go through the NBA’s past five rookies of the year. Kyrie Irving, Blake Griffin, Tyreke Evans, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant.                                They averaged : 80 GS, 34.6 MPG, 20.3 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1 SPG                                                                   So lets see…here. The combined age of the rookie of the year for the past 5 years is 19.8. Oh and what else was that? Each of them put up numbers which place them in the top tier of the league.  I do see another trend though among these players, who were all picked in the top 5 of their draft classes. All of them started from day one when they arrived to the league, and all of them played 34+ MPG.

    ANSWER:  Each player you ranked was a McDonalds All American.  Except for Grffin, the 15th ranked recruit in the country, all these guys were consensus top 3 HS recruits. Each player had shown since they were 15 they had NBA level skill. Yes, They all played 34+ mpg and DESTROY Evan Turner on per minute production and ET is on average 2 years-2 months older than these guys. Why was ET the only one who couldn’t play steady minutes, lack of talent or bad luck?

  62. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:29

    POINT 3: But wait…when Turner came to the league as the second pick in his draft class what did he do? In his rookie year he sat on the bench for long stretches, was placed in Doug Collins’ dog house, had to deal with constant questions regarding why Jodie Meeks was an NBA starter (now he’s an end of the bench reserve for the Lakers), and generally just was really unhappy.

    ANSWER: Hypothetically, Are you insinuating that any of the 5 players you just mentioned wouldn’t immediately come in and immediately play 34+ mpg if they were drafted to the 76ers instead of Turner?  

  63. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:30

    POINT 4: Year two his attitude improved and he worked hard to become better in the offseason. He started off the season in a great way. Yet by the time February rolled around, Collins started to play with his minutes again and you could see him becoming frustrated again and making mistakes. It wasn’t until early March that Collins decided to give him his minutes again, and it was only after Meeks had sucked bad enough that he’d finally had it. It’s easy for a player like Meeks to be efficient…all he has to do is disappear on the offensive end until he’s needed for a 3-ball. Guy can’t dribble, pass, or create his own shot if his life depended on it. He couldn’t orchestrate an offensive set like Turner could which is why ultimately their roles switched at that point in the season.

    ANSWER:  You are basically completely wrong and did no research before making this comment

    Turners averages through the first 20 games last year up until February                                     27mpg 10.2pts (47fg% 17-3pt% 65ft%) .5 OReb, 5.6DReb, 2.8 AST, .7 STL, 1.6 TO, 2 Fouls

    Turners averages from February 1st through March 5th, when he “lost” his minutes                    21mpg 4.9 pts (32fg% 33-3pt% 70ft%) .5 OReb, 5.1 DReb, 2.4 AST, .3 STL, .9 TO, 1.3 Fouls

    Turners averages once he got his minutes back through the end of the season.                             30mpg 11.8pts (48fg% 21-3pt% 72ft%) .3 OReb, 5 DReb, 2.7 AST, .7 STL, 2 TO, 2 Fouls

    Jeff, what is your explanation for these numbers?  Either you are wrong and just made your 4th point out of relatively thin air or the numbers are right, which one is it?  Please let Philadunkia Know

  64. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:30

    POINT 5: I’m not even going to get into the “basketball reference” stats argument with you. 

    ANSWER: Of course you aren’t going to get in a discussion about numbers when every piece of statistical information you can come up with backs my argument up.

  65. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:31

    POINT 6: Next season I will, but you’re trying to compare extensively a starter to a bench player. I was just simply saying, based on what he showed the Sixers mostly last season, and compared to Iguodala’s output from his first two seasons, there’s no reason to believe if given the correct amount of minutes and the opportunity to start at his correct position for an entire season then he can accomplish great things. Dre started in 68 more games than Turner his rookie year, and 62 more in his second year. 

    ANSWER: Re-Read my answer to Point 4.  Also explain this to me, Jeff

    Sixers Record with Iggy first 2 years:                                                                                              30-18 (63%) in 40+ minutes, 38-44 (46%) in 30-39 minutes, 14-21(40%) in under 30 minues    

    Sixers Record with Turner first 2 years:                                                                                                  15-39 (44%) in 30+ minutes, 34-31 (52%) in 29-20 minutes, 25-18 (58%)in under 20 minute                                                                                                      

  66. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:31

    POINT 6: And you also claim the league was more competitive then for Iguodala…When the West absolutely dominated the East back then except when it mattered! The Celtics who won the Atlantic in Iggy’s first season, had a subpar lineup of an over-the-hill Gary Payton, a before his prime Tony Allen, Paul Pierce, Raef Lafrentz, and Mark Blount. You’re telling me that, that lineup is more difficult than the current lineup Turner has had to face the past 2 years? Or LeBron James’ Heat? Or Dwight Howards Magic? Or Derrick Roses’ Bulls? Even that Hawks, Pacers, and Knicks are better than most of the teams that were in the East back than. The Heat with Wade and Shaq and Pistons with their defense ruled and there were no other true contenders. So please…never make that arguement again.

    ANSWER: Through their first two seasons, 35mpg for Iguodala, compared to 25mpg for ET.  Iggy was consistently matched up against the other teams best wing his first 2 years and still is to this day. ET rarely guarded the other teams best offensive option, and when he did, it was ugly.  You continue to just pull arguments out of your ass. Philly was 33-49 the year before Iggy was drafted, they went 43-39 his rookie season.  Heading into the 05 season which was Iggys rookie year, Detroit, Indiana and Miami along with San Antonio were the four favorites to win the NBA title.

  67. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:32

    POINT 7: You keep coming back to the teammates arguement with Iguodala. Iguodala isn’t a leader which is why his teams never went anywhere. When the team actually had a leader in Andre Miller, the Sixers found success but ran into the wrong team in the playoffs and for a dumb reason didn’t re-sign Miller that offseason.  Iguodala had 3 seasons to prove he could be a team leader. 2006-07, 2007-08, and 2009-10. In ’06-’07, they missed the playoffs. In ’07-’08 they finished 40-42, but in a bad East were still able to grab the 7th seed before losing to the Pistons. And in 2009-10 they had their worse season in the past decade.

    ANSWER: In 06-07, Willie Green, Joe Smith, Steven Hunter, Rodney Carney, Kevin Ollie, Bobby Jones, Alan Henderson, a young not good Lou Williams, Chris Webber’s Corpse and some other bums played 47% of the available minutes in the regular season.  Andre Miller and Korver were both below average and played 22% of the available minutes.  Iguodala and Dalembert played 28% of the minutes and were by far the 2 best players and both well above average.  15 games of Allen Iverson took up the other 3%.  

    In 07-08 Philly put up a better fight (won more games) In the playoffs against Detroit then the Orlando Magic did.  That Magic team featured Hedo, Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis all in their prime and 1st Team All NBA Center that year, Dwight Howard.  

    09-10 is the Eddie Jordan Year

    You actually think it’s Iggys fault those 3 teams didn’t do better?

  68. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:34

    POINT 8: My arguments are based on facts and day-to-day struggles. Not based on PER’s and ATR’s.

    ANSWER: No Jeff, your arguments are based on assumptions that are not backed up by fact, everyone of your statements is either factually incorrect or based on a wholly skewed thought process that I debunk time and time again

  69. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:40

    POINT 9: The bottom line is you can’t prove yourself unless you’re given the chance. Turner’s about to get that chance. Iguodala had his chance to be “the man” for the Sixers for 8 years.

    ANSWER: Name 1 team in the the past 40 years that made the NBA Finals and didn’t have both a Hall of Fame player and an All-Star.
    MJ, Shaq, Malone+Stockton, Hakeem, Lebron, Robinsin, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, Pierce, Pippen, Wade, Dwight, Kodd, Nash, Iverson, Iggy and countless others could not win an NBA title without the help of fellow Hall of Fame guys and All-Stars

    Turner has been terrible for 3500 minutes of playing time, how much more time should he get?

  70. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:45

    POINT 10: Outside of Patrick Ewing, I can’t recall a true center in the past 20 years that didn’t win a ring. Howard vs. Bynum will be a saga for years to come.

    ANSWER: I don’t think that “True Center” means what you think it means. I believe you mean “Hall of Fame Centers almost always win NBA championships” and that is certainly true. This is true as well “Almost every Center to win an NBA title has had multiple teammates who were all stars and hall of famers”

  71. Steve Toll
    25. August 2012 at 16:49

    POINT 11: Turner is going to play a huge role on the Sixers next season, where Andre Iguodala will play the same role he always does…as a good complimentary player. That’s a fact.

    ANSWER: Jeff, Turner is going to play a huge role next year and Philly will be in the lottery. Iguodala will be a complimentary player on a 55+ win playoff team, an All-Star and 1st team All-NBA defender.

    Jeff, you finally made a point that was correct in a totally weird and incorrect way

  72. Steve Toll
    27. August 2012 at 17:24

    Jeff,

    I’ll break down your argument (lol) on a point by point basis
    POINT 1:   Secondly, you act like age is a determining factor on how a player is going to perform in the NBA. If this were true, there wouldn’t be 18 year olds drafted into the league every year with the top 10 picks.

    ANSWER: Age is a determining factor.  Players generally show NBA ability at 18.  Young players are drafted on how they have produced and the expectation for improvement as they get older.  Please read these 2 articles : http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/25/age-is-just-a-varible/ and http://deadspin.com/5908998/before-steve-kerr-sends-19+year+old-players-back-to-college-he-should-try-some-academic-research-himself

    POINT 2: Actually, since we’re on the topic. Let’s go through the NBA’s past five rookies of the year. Kyrie Irving, Blake Griffin, Tyreke Evans, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant.                                They averaged : 80 GS, 34.6 MPG, 20.3 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1 SPG                                                                   So lets see…here. The combined age of the rookie of the year for the past 5 years is 19.8. Oh and what else was that? Each of them put up numbers which place them in the top tier of the league.  I do see another trend though among these players, who were all picked in the top 5 of their draft classes. All of them started from day one when they arrived to the league, and all of them played 34+ MPG.

    ANSWER:  Each player you ranked was a McDonalds All American.  Except for Grffin, the 15th ranked recruit in the country, all these guys were consensus top 3 HS recruits.  They all played 34+ mpg and DESTROY Evan Turner on per minute production and ET is on average 2 years-2 months older than these guys.

    POINT 3: But wait…when Turner came to the league as the second pick in his draft class what did he do? In his rookie year he sat on the bench for long stretches, was placed in Doug Collins’ dog house, had to deal with constant questions regarding why Jodie Meeks was an NBA starter (now he’s an end of the bench reserve for the Lakers), and generally just was really unhappy.

    ANSWER: Hypothetically, Are you insinuating that any of the 5 players you just mentioned wouldn’t immediately come in and immediately play 34+ mpg if they were drafted to the 76ers instead of Turner?  

    POINT 4: Year two his attitude improved and he worked hard to become better in the offseason. He started off the season in a great way. Yet by the time February rolled around, Collins started to play with his minutes again and you could see him becoming frustrated again and making mistakes. It wasn’t until early March that Collins decided to give him his minutes again, and it was only after Meeks had sucked bad enough that he’d finally had it. It’s easy for a player like Meeks to be efficient…all he has to do is disappear on the offensive end until he’s needed for a 3-ball. Guy can’t dribble, pass, or create his own shot if his life depended on it. He couldn’t orchestrate an offensive set like Turner could which is why ultimately their roles switched at that point in the season.

    ANSWER:  You are basically completely wrong and did no research before making this comment

    Turners averages through the first 20 games last year up until February                                     27mpg 10.2pts (47fg% 17-3pt% 65ft%) .5 OReb, 5.6DReb, 2.8 AST, .7 STL, 1.6 TO, 2 Fouls

    Turners averages from February 1st through March 5th, when he “lost” his minutes                    21mpg 4.9 pts (32fg% 33-3pt% 70ft%) .5 OReb, 5.1 DReb, 2.4 AST, .3 STL, .9 TO, 1.3 Fouls

    Turners averages once he got his minutes back through the end of the season.                             30mpg 11.8pts (48fg% 21-3pt% 72ft%) .3 OReb, 5 DReb, 2.7 AST, .7 STL, 2 TO, 2 Fouls

    Jeff, what is your explanation for these numbers?  Either you are wrong and just made your 4th point out of relatively thin air or the numbers are right, which one is it?  Please let Philadunkia Know

    POINT 5: I’m not even going to get into the “basketball reference” stats argument with you. 

    ANSWER: Of course you aren’t going to get in a discussion about numbers when every piece of statistical information you can come up with backs my argument up.

    POINT 6: Next season I will, but you’re trying to compare extensively a starter to a bench player. I was just simply saying, based on what he showed the Sixers mostly last season, and compared to Iguodala’s output from his first two seasons, there’s no reason to believe if given the correct amount of minutes and the opportunity to start at his correct position for an entire season then he can accomplish great things. Dre started in 68 more games than Turner his rookie year, and 62 more in his second year. 

    ANSWER: Re-Read my answer to Point 4.  Also explain this to me, Jeff

    Sixers Record with Iggy first 2 years:                                                                                              30-18 (63%) in 40+ minutes, 38-44 (46%) in 30-39 minutes, 14-21(40%) in under 30 minues    

    Sixers Record with Turner first 2 years:                                                                                                  15-39 (44%) in 30+ minutes, 34-31 (52%) in 29-20 minutes, 25-18 (58%)in under 20 minute                                                                                                       

    POINT 6: And you also claim the league was more competitive then for Iguodala…When the West absolutely dominated the East back then except when it mattered! The Celtics who won the Atlantic in Iggy’s first season, had a subpar lineup of an over-the-hill Gary Payton, a before his prime Tony Allen, Paul Pierce, Raef Lafrentz, and Mark Blount. You’re telling me that, that lineup is more difficult than the current lineup Turner has had to face the past 2 years? Or LeBron James’ Heat? Or Dwight Howards Magic? Or Derrick Roses’ Bulls? Even that Hawks, Pacers, and Knicks are better than most of the teams that were in the East back than. The Heat with Wade and Shaq and Pistons with their defense ruled and there were no other true contenders. So please…never make that arguement again.

    ANSWER: Through their first two seasons, 35mpg for Iguodala, compared to 25mpg for ET.  Iggy was consistently matched up against the other teams best wing his first 2 years and still is to this day. ET rarely guarded the other teams best offensive option, and when he did, it was ugly.  You continue to just pull arguments out of your ass. Philly was 33-49 the year before Iggy was drafted, they went 43-39 his rookie season.  Heading into the 05 season which was Iggys rookie year, Detroit, Indiana and Miami along with San Antonio were the four favorites to win the NBA title.

    POINT 7: You keep coming back to the teammates arguement with Iguodala. Iguodala isn’t a leader which is why his teams never went anywhere. When the team actually had a leader in Andre Miller, the Sixers found success but ran into the wrong team in the playoffs and for a dumb reason didn’t re-sign Miller that offseason.  Iguodala had 3 seasons to prove he could be a team leader. 2006-07, 2007-08, and 2009-10. In ’06-’07, they missed the playoffs. In ’07-’08 they finished 40-42, but in a bad East were still able to grab the 7th seed before losing to the Pistons. And in 2009-10 they had their worse season in the past decade.

    ANSWER: In 06-07, Willie Green, Joe Smith, Steven Hunter, Rodney Carney, Kevin Ollie, Bobby Jones, Alan Henderson, a young not good Lou Williams, Chris Webber’s Corpse and some other bums played 47% of the available minutes in the regular season.  Andre Miller and Korver were both below average and played 22% of the available minutes.  Iguodala and Dalembert played 28% of the minutes and were by far the 2 best players and both well above average.  15 games of Allen Iverson took up the other 3%.  

    In 07-08 Philly put up a better fight (won more games) In the playoffs against Detroit then the Orlando Magic did.  That Magic team featured Hedo, Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis all in their prime and 1st Team All NBA Center that year, Dwight Howard.  

    09-10 is the Eddie Jordan Year!
    Here is an article where you proclaim Eddie Jordan to be a “great coach”: http://philadunkia.com/?p=299 OH SNAP!

    You actually think it’s Iggys fault those 3 teams didn’t do better?

    POINT 8: My arguments are based on facts and day-to-day struggles. Not based on PER’s and ATR’s.

    ANSWER: No Jeff, your arguments are based on assumptions that are not backed up by fact, everyone of your statements is either factually incorrect or based on a wholly skewed thought process that I debunk time and time again

    POINT 9: The bottom line is you can’t prove yourself unless you’re given the chance. Turner’s about to get that chance. Iguodala had his chance to be “the man” for the Sixers for 8 years.

    ANSWER: Name 1 team in the the past 40 years that made the NBA Finals and didn’t have both a Hall of Fame player and an All-Star.
    MJ, Shaq, Malone+Stockton, Hakeem, Lebron, Robinsin, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, Pierce, Pippen, Wade, Dwight, Kodd, Nash, Iverson, Iggy and countless others could not win an NBA title without the help of fellow Hall of Fame guys and All-Stars

    Turner has been terrible for 3500 minutes of playing time, how much more time should he get?

    POINT 10: Outside of Patrick Ewing, I can’t recall a true center in the past 20 years that didn’t win a ring. Howard vs. Bynum will be a saga for years to come.

    ANSWER: I don’t think that “True Center” means what you think it means. I believe you mean “Hall of Fame Centers almost always win NBA championships” and that is certainly true. This is true as well “Almost every Center to win an NBA title has had multiple teammates who were all stars and hall of famers”

    POINT 11: Turner is going to play a huge role on the Sixers next season, where Andre Iguodala will play the same role he always does…as a good complimentary player. That’s a fact.

    ANSWER: Jeff, Turner is going to play a huge role next year and Philly will be in the lottery. Iguodala will be a complimentary player on a 55+ win playoff team, an All-Star and 1st team All-NBA defender.

    Jeff, you finally made a point that was correct in a totally weird and incorrect way

    Point 12: I could throw up 50 different stat comparisons up here, but until you truly dissect a season and the human reaction that certain situations can cause to a player than you can’t really judge how great that player actually is. I guess that John Lucas’ stats show how good he actually was as a player right? Because he wasn’t abusing drugs during those years in the league? There’s a lot more to basketball than stats which is what I’m trying to prove to you.

    The bottom line is you can’t prove yourself unless you’re given the chance. Turner’s about to get that chance. Iguodala had his chance to be “the man” for the Sixers for 8 years, until fans/ownership became so tired of the stale act and traded him at his highest value…winning his first playoff series ever while having an all-star season, and winning gold for Team USA. So instead of crying over someone who really should’ve been traded 4 years ago, be happy that the new ownership who have been incredible over the past 10 months went in a different a better direction with the franchise. More often than not, teams with a dominant center win championships.

    ANSWER: First you say your not gonna argue stats and then you say you could but your choosing not. You have used stats when you thought it would benefit your argument.
    What does John Lucas and drugs have to do with this discussion? Iguodala has been a top 10 producer the past 8 seasons combined, the stats back that up. I’m sorry you don’t realize that bad coaches and worse teammates are the real reason Philly hasn’t been a winner.

    Life is about stats, our Billionaire ownership group would agree but they must be wrong too, if you’re right

  73. Steve Toll
    27. August 2012 at 17:26

    Steve TollYour comment is awaiting moderation.
    27. August 2012 at 17:24
    Jeff,

    I’ll break down your argument (lol) on a point by point basis
    POINT 1:   Secondly, you act like age is a determining factor on how a player is going to perform in the NBA. If this were true, there wouldn’t be 18 year olds drafted into the league every year with the top 10 picks.

    ANSWER: Age is a determining factor.  Players generally show NBA ability at 18.  Young players are drafted on how they have produced and the expectation for improvement as they get older.  Please read these 2 articles : http://wagesofwins.com/2012/07/25/age-is-just-a-varible/ and http://deadspin.com/5908998/before-steve-kerr-sends-19+year+old-players-back-to-college-he-should-try-some-academic-research-himself

    POINT 2: Actually, since we’re on the topic. Let’s go through the NBA’s past five rookies of the year. Kyrie Irving, Blake Griffin, Tyreke Evans, Derrick Rose, Kevin Durant.                                They averaged : 80 GS, 34.6 MPG, 20.3 PPG, 4.4 RPG, 2.4 APG, 1 SPG                                                                   So lets see…here. The combined age of the rookie of the year for the past 5 years is 19.8. Oh and what else was that? Each of them put up numbers which place them in the top tier of the league.  I do see another trend though among these players, who were all picked in the top 5 of their draft classes. All of them started from day one when they arrived to the league, and all of them played 34+ MPG.

    ANSWER:  Each player you ranked was a McDonalds All American.  Except for Grffin, the 15th ranked recruit in the country, all these guys were consensus top 3 HS recruits.  They all played 34+ mpg and DESTROY Evan Turner on per minute production and ET is on average 2 years-2 months older than these guys.

    POINT 3: But wait…when Turner came to the league as the second pick in his draft class what did he do? In his rookie year he sat on the bench for long stretches, was placed in Doug Collins’ dog house, had to deal with constant questions regarding why Jodie Meeks was an NBA starter (now he’s an end of the bench reserve for the Lakers), and generally just was really unhappy.

    ANSWER: Hypothetically, Are you insinuating that any of the 5 players you just mentioned wouldn’t immediately come in and immediately play 34+ mpg if they were drafted to the 76ers instead of Turner?  

    POINT 4: Year two his attitude improved and he worked hard to become better in the offseason. He started off the season in a great way. Yet by the time February rolled around, Collins started to play with his minutes again and you could see him becoming frustrated again and making mistakes. It wasn’t until early March that Collins decided to give him his minutes again, and it was only after Meeks had sucked bad enough that he’d finally had it. It’s easy for a player like Meeks to be efficient…all he has to do is disappear on the offensive end until he’s needed for a 3-ball. Guy can’t dribble, pass, or create his own shot if his life depended on it. He couldn’t orchestrate an offensive set like Turner could which is why ultimately their roles switched at that point in the season.

    ANSWER:  You are basically completely wrong and did no research before making this comment

    Turners averages through the first 20 games last year up until February                                     27mpg 10.2pts (47fg%) .5 OReb, 5.6DReb, 2.8 AST, .7 STL, 1.6 TO, 2 Fouls

    Turners averages from February 1st through March 5th, when he “lost” his minutes                    21mpg 4.9 pts (32fg%) .5 OReb, 5.1 DReb, 2.4 AST, .3 STL, .9 TO, 1.3 Fouls

    Turners averages once he got his minutes back through the end of the season.                             30mpg 11.8pts (48fg%) .3 OReb, 5 DReb, 2.7 AST, .7 STL, 2 TO, 2 Fouls

    Jeff, what is your explanation for these numbers?  Either you are wrong and just made your 4th point out of relatively thin air or the numbers are right, which one is it?  Please let Philadunkia Know

    POINT 5: I’m not even going to get into the “basketball reference” stats argument with you. 

    ANSWER: Of course you aren’t going to get in a discussion about numbers when every piece of statistical information you can come up with backs my argument up.

    POINT 6: Next season I will, but you’re trying to compare extensively a starter to a bench player. I was just simply saying, based on what he showed the Sixers mostly last season, and compared to Iguodala’s output from his first two seasons, there’s no reason to believe if given the correct amount of minutes and the opportunity to start at his correct position for an entire season then he can accomplish great things. Dre started in 68 more games than Turner his rookie year, and 62 more in his second year. 

    ANSWER: Re-Read my answer to Point 4.  Also explain this to me, Jeff

    Sixers Record with Iggy first 2 years:                                                                                              30-18 (63%) in 40+ minutes, 38-44 (46%) in 30-39 minutes, 14-21(40%) in under 30 minues    

    Sixers Record with Turner first 2 years:                                                                                                  15-39 (44%) in 30+ minutes, 34-31 (52%) in 29-20 minutes, 25-18 (58%)in under 20 minute                                                                                                       

    POINT 6: And you also claim the league was more competitive then for Iguodala…When the West absolutely dominated the East back then except when it mattered! The Celtics who won the Atlantic in Iggy’s first season, had a subpar lineup of an over-the-hill Gary Payton, a before his prime Tony Allen, Paul Pierce, Raef Lafrentz, and Mark Blount. You’re telling me that, that lineup is more difficult than the current lineup Turner has had to face the past 2 years? Or LeBron James’ Heat? Or Dwight Howards Magic? Or Derrick Roses’ Bulls? Even that Hawks, Pacers, and Knicks are better than most of the teams that were in the East back than. The Heat with Wade and Shaq and Pistons with their defense ruled and there were no other true contenders. So please…never make that arguement again.

    ANSWER: Through their first two seasons, 35mpg for Iguodala, compared to 25mpg for ET.  Iggy was consistently matched up against the other teams best wing his first 2 years and still is to this day. ET rarely guarded the other teams best offensive option, and when he did, it was ugly.  You continue to just pull arguments out of your ass. Philly was 33-49 the year before Iggy was drafted, they went 43-39 his rookie season.  Heading into the 05 season which was Iggys rookie year, Detroit, Indiana and Miami along with San Antonio were the four favorites to win the NBA title.

    POINT 7: You keep coming back to the teammates arguement with Iguodala. Iguodala isn’t a leader which is why his teams never went anywhere. When the team actually had a leader in Andre Miller, the Sixers found success but ran into the wrong team in the playoffs and for a dumb reason didn’t re-sign Miller that offseason.  Iguodala had 3 seasons to prove he could be a team leader. 2006-07, 2007-08, and 2009-10. In ’06-’07, they missed the playoffs. In ’07-’08 they finished 40-42, but in a bad East were still able to grab the 7th seed before losing to the Pistons. And in 2009-10 they had their worse season in the past decade.

    ANSWER: In 06-07, Willie Green, Joe Smith, Steven Hunter, Rodney Carney, Kevin Ollie, Bobby Jones, Alan Henderson, a young not good Lou Williams, Chris Webber’s Corpse and some other bums played 47% of the available minutes in the regular season.  Andre Miller and Korver were both below average and played 22% of the available minutes.  Iguodala and Dalembert played 28% of the minutes and were by far the 2 best players and both well above average.  15 games of Allen Iverson took up the other 3%.  

    In 07-08 Philly put up a better fight (won more games) In the playoffs against Detroit then the Orlando Magic did.  That Magic team featured Hedo, Jameer Nelson and Rashard Lewis all in their prime and 1st Team All NBA Center that year, Dwight Howard.  

    09-10 is the Eddie Jordan Year!
    Here is an article where you proclaim Eddie Jordan to be a “great coach”: http://philadunkia.com/?p=299 OH SNAP!

    You actually think it’s Iggys fault those 3 teams didn’t do better?

    POINT 8: My arguments are based on facts and day-to-day struggles. Not based on PER’s and ATR’s.

    ANSWER: No Jeff, your arguments are based on assumptions that are not backed up by fact, everyone of your statements is either factually incorrect or based on a wholly skewed thought process that I debunk time and time again

    POINT 9: The bottom line is you can’t prove yourself unless you’re given the chance. Turner’s about to get that chance. Iguodala had his chance to be “the man” for the Sixers for 8 years.

    ANSWER: Name 1 team in the the past 40 years that made the NBA Finals and didn’t have both a Hall of Fame player and an All-Star.
    MJ, Shaq, Malone+Stockton, Hakeem, Lebron, Robinsin, Duncan, Dirk, Garnett, Pierce, Pippen, Wade, Dwight, Kodd, Nash, Iverson, Iggy and countless others could not win an NBA title without the help of fellow Hall of Fame guys and All-Stars

    Turner has been terrible for 3500 minutes of playing time, how much more time should he get?

    POINT 10: Outside of Patrick Ewing, I can’t recall a true center in the past 20 years that didn’t win a ring. Howard vs. Bynum will be a saga for years to come.

    ANSWER: I don’t think that “True Center” means what you think it means. I believe you mean “Hall of Fame Centers almost always win NBA championships” and that is certainly true. This is true as well “Almost every Center to win an NBA title has had multiple teammates who were all stars and hall of famers”

    POINT 11: Turner is going to play a huge role on the Sixers next season, where Andre Iguodala will play the same role he always does…as a good complimentary player. That’s a fact.

    ANSWER: Jeff, Turner is going to play a huge role next year and Philly will be in the lottery. Iguodala will be a complimentary player on a 55+ win playoff team, an All-Star and 1st team All-NBA defender.

    Jeff, you finally made a point that was correct in a totally weird and incorrect way

    Point 12: I could throw up 50 different stat comparisons up here, but until you truly dissect a season and the human reaction that certain situations can cause to a player than you can’t really judge how great that player actually is. I guess that John Lucas’ stats show how good he actually was as a player right? Because he wasn’t abusing drugs during those years in the league? There’s a lot more to basketball than stats which is what I’m trying to prove to you.

    The bottom line is you can’t prove yourself unless you’re given the chance. Turner’s about to get that chance. Iguodala had his chance to be “the man” for the Sixers for 8 years, until fans/ownership became so tired of the stale act and traded him at his highest value…winning his first playoff series ever while having an all-star season, and winning gold for Team USA. So instead of crying over someone who really should’ve been traded 4 years ago, be happy that the new ownership who have been incredible over the past 10 months went in a different a better direction with the franchise. More often than not, teams with a dominant center win championships.

    ANSWER: First you say your not gonna argue stats and then you say you could but your choosing not. You have used stats when you thought it would benefit your argument.
    What does John Lucas and drugs have to do with this discussion? Iguodala has been a top 10 producer the past 8 seasons combined, the stats back that up. I’m sorry you don’t realize that bad coaches and worse teammates are the real reason Philly hasn’t been a winner.

    Life is about stats, our Billionaire ownership group would agree but they must be wrong too, if you’re right

  74. Ryan
    29. August 2012 at 21:35

    Other then not keeping Moe Harkless and the signing of Kwame “The Bust” Brown. Philly did everything right!!!

  75. Jeff McMenamin
    30. August 2012 at 21:53

    Point 1:
    What I was doing was disproving your comment…
    “Turner made his NBA debut on his 22nd birthday, 14 months older than when Iggy made his debut. So we can compare the first two seasons but Age is a better way to compare players season to season.”
    This is basically saying because Iguodala was more than a year younger than Turner that he’s expected to perform worse, when Iguodala was a second team All-American in high school.

    Point 2:
    Then I went ahead and showed how just because a player is young doesn’t mean he can’t perform among the tops in the NBA by using examples. Obviously players should get better as they age, but there’s no reason a player can’t perform among the tops in the league right out of the gate as a 19 year old in the NBA, which I proved. So basically you’re telling me that you’re now in agreement with me on this point. I’ll get to your point on Turner in a second.

    Point 3:
    Evan Turner was the #7 ranked SF in his HS class by ESPN, 49th ranked player overall. As a junior at Ohio State he won the Wooden, Naismith, Robertson, Fox Sports, NABC, TSN, and AP Player of the Year awards in 2010, nearly sweeping all of the major college player of the year awards. He was selected as the number 2 pick to the Sixers. So after receiving more prestigious awards and being an older/more matured player than Iguodala had been as a rookie, and being a higher pick you believe Doug Collins treated him right by gluing him to the bench where Iguodala was able to start every game and grow as the ninth pick in his draft without the prestigious awards? The Sixers weren’t going anywhere in the 2010-11 season, so why throw a guy you’re putting the future of your franchise on the line with on the bench for a large portion of his first two seasons in the league? What I’m insinuating is that Turner has been treated the wrong way, and he should’ve been treated like those guys I mentioned as an every game starter that he’ll finally be next season.

    Point 4: Thanks for doing the detailed research because it clearly proves my point. When Turners minutes dipped, his numbers dipped. When his minutes increased, his production increased. 6 minutes a game in basketball is a lot less playing time. If coach Collins decided to take out Iguodala in the last 6 minutes of every game, do you think he’d be the same player? Or if Collins plugged in Lou Williams for 34 minutes one game, than only threw him in the game for 10 the next that he’d be in rhythm and perform at the highest level? Hell no. Sure Turner’s numbers didn’t drastically improve at the end of the season compared to the beginning of the season (where he got 3 more minutes a game), but compared to when his minutes were taken away there’s no comparison. He improved greatly in nearly every category. He’ll get at least 4 more minutes per game next season, as well as much of the offense being run through him and having plays set up exclusively to his skill sets. He’s going to put up career numbers across the board.

    Point 5:
    Your argument is that Turner is not a good player. My arguement is that if given the correct amount of minutes he’ll show that he is. That’s why there’s no point in arguing his stats compared to Iguodala’s, because Iguodala started every game he was healthy enough to start as a Sixer.

    Point 6:
    Turner’s WS(wins shared) for Ohio State ranks him 20th all-time in the Big Ten record books at 16.6.
    Actually I don’t know where you got your stats on Turner and Iguodala, because they are wrong on wins per in 30+ minutes.

    2010-11: (6-10)
    2011-12: (13-14)

    I’m only going to compare Iguodala and Turners wins produced for the 30-39 minute range, because it’s the fairest way to compare the two. Iguodala doesn’t understand the concept of playing less than 30 min a game, because he’s rarely had to. 19-24 for Turner in that range I agree isn’t that great, but for a team who has barely played .500 basketball over the past 2 seasons it isn’t horrible either. Plus he helped produce double the amount of wins in his second season.

    These are the numbers for Iguodala…

    2004-05: (21-20)
    2005-06: (15-21)

    So in two seasons playing with future HOF Allen Iverson, Iguodala helped the team to a 36-41 record playing in the 30-39 minute range. Even though the Sixers failed to make the playoffs in 2005-06, which obviously is a different situation that Turner was in, the Sixers teams still finished with similar winning percentages.

    2004-2006: (81-83, 49%)
    2010-2012: (76-72, 51%)

    My question to you, is why are you lying to Philadunkia readers? Or explain where you got your numbers from and what they mean, because I just did the research you claimed to have done and disproved everything you just said.

    Extended point 6:
    Your comment…
    “Through their first two seasons, 35mpg for Iguodala, compared to 25mpg for ET. Iggy was consistently matched up against the other teams best wing his first 2 years and still is to this day. ET rarely guarded the other teams best offensive option, and when he did, it was ugly. You continue to just pull arguments out of your ass. Philly was 33-49 the year before Iggy was drafted, they went 43-39 his rookie season. Heading into the 05 season which was Iggys rookie year, Detroit, Indiana and Miami along with San Antonio were the four favorites to win the NBA title.”

    Give me proof that Turner didn’t guard the other teams best option, I seem to remember him guarding LeBron James and Rajon Rondo often last season and whenever Iguodala was out of the game Turner was seen guarding the other teams best option and did a pretty commendable job. Philly went 27-55 the year before Turner was drafted then 41-41 his rookie season. Indiana didn’t have a team after the Ron Artest fight eight games into that season and didn’t recover for 8 years. Detroit, Miami, San Antonio and Pheonix were the four favorites after the brawl happened. Pheonix finished with the leagues best record in 2005 with 62-20 to the Heats 59-23, the Spurs also finished at 59-23. Spurs won the finals. 2006 the Pistons finished at 64-18 to the Spurs’ 63-19, but the Mavs finished 60-22 and the Suns 54-28…both better than the Heats 52-30. Heat rode Wade in his prime and came back from 2-0 down to beat the Mavs. If you think the West didn’t dominate the East back then, than you are nuts.

    Point 7:
    I agree with you on 2006-07, but not on 2007-08 or 2009-10. Iguodala had enough pieces around him to win a playoff series/get to the playoffs and failed miserably. If he was truly a leader he would’ve rode the momentum of a 2-1 series lead against Detroit and finished them off, but instead he let them regain their momentum (shooting 4-16, 25%) in Game 4 as Detroit took over.

    Yes I made a bad prediction on how Eddie Jordan would’ve worked out as coach, but to be fair to him that Sixers team shouldn’t have finished nearly as bad as they did. It was nearly identical to the Sixers rosters the past 3 seasons. Iguodala is supposed to take pressure off of a new coach as the teams star, instead he put more pressure on him having his worst WS (6.7) since his rookie season. Eddie Jordan was a successful NBA coach, but wasn’t able to make his system work in Philly. Initially I thought he was a good coach that said the right things and could change things around. Unfortunately I was wrong and it just makes me so much more grateful that the Sixers now have Doug Collins.

    I do though think two of those teams could’ve been much better had Iguodala taken his game to a higher level.

    Point 8:
    “No Jeff, your arguments are based on assumptions that are not backed up by fact, everyone of your statements is either factually incorrect or based on a wholly skewed thought process that I debunk time and time again.”

    The stats you showed in point 4 further proved my point and the stats you put in point 4 were totally false. Your statements are the ones factually incorrect or based on a skewed thought process. So no, I actually have backed up my points…It seems like I’m the person debunking you time and time again.

    Point 9:
    See point 6. In 30-39 minutes played, Turner and Iguodala share a very similar win percentage.

    Point 10:
    Agreed. I don’t think the Sixers have any HOF’s surrounding Bynum, but I believe Jrue Holiday or Evan Turner could become all-stars and there are a lot of surrounding complimentary pieces like Thad or Richardson. Down the road who knows who ownership will surround Bynum with.

    Point 11:
    That is the most retarded statement I have ever heard. There’s no way the Sixers finish anywhere close to the lottery. They’ll be a top 4 team in the East next season. Iguodala won’t be an All-Star, he has the opportunity to make first-team defense but I highly doubt it. He’s never made first-team, he didn’t even make second-team last season, and he only made second-team once in his career (2011).

    Point 12:
    I’ll break this into 3 parts…

    Every stat I’ve used have intensified my argument. Every stat you’ve used have either been wrong (point 6), made my argument stronger (point 4), or just been erroneous to our debate (your entire response to my original post.

    I mentioned John Lucas to show how Turners numbers can’t be fully explained by just looking at stats, just how Lucas’ cant be fully explained in that way either. Lucas dealt with a drug addiction, Turner dealt with his confidence being shot and anger towards his head coach.

    Iguodala without question was the best player (besides Iverson) on the Sixers for the past 8 seasons. He made for the most part bad teams perform better than they should have. I obviously realize that Philly hasn’t been a true winner because of bad coaching, drafting, and trading over the past 8 years…but I also think that Andre Iguodala could’ve played like he did last season for at least 4 of his other seasons with the Sixers and wasn’t passionate enough to do it. Philly would’ve never won a championship with the teams Iguodala had on the court, but they could’ve won at least 2 more playoff series’.

    If you think life is about stats than I feel sorry for you. I don’t think the ownership would agree with that statement at all. Life is about accomplishing great things and making your mark. The ownership group have obviously done that in their lives already as billionaires. The ownership group has repeatedly said they’re trying to re-build the culture of Sixers basketball and they’ve done a hell of a job in just under a year. If they cared so much about stats they would’ve kept the Steve Toll acclaimed “stat-sheet stuffer” Andre Iguodala for next season and not gone after one of the most athletically gifted and exciting players in the league in Andrew Bynum.

    Andrew Bynum is going to fill the seats and win basketball games. Those are the only two stats the ownnership cares about…two things Andre Iguodala was never able to do.

  76. idiot
    3. September 2012 at 21:12

    steve toll, stats don’t tell the story. the sooner you learn that, the sooner you can switch jobs and find one that suits you better.

  77. matt
    5. September 2012 at 08:48

    its a great deal cuz think of the last time the sixers had a good big man let alone a great scoring big man like bynum we have plenty of guards that can play SF turner finally gets to be something we finally got a closer to shoot the big shot in j rich and jrue will have a breakout season and we will get too see the fan favorite of lavoy allen to see what he has to be a starter final point we got the big man we have desperatly needed Welcome to Philadelphia Andrew Bynum!

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