Posted by: C. Smith
10/01/12 10:50 am EST

In case you missed it over the weekend, on Saturday ESPN.com posted an interesting interview with former 76er swingman Andre Iguodala.  

NBA scribe Jared Zwerling (of ESPNNewYork.com & other online outlets) got some time from Dre and was able to get AI9 to open up about his time here in Philly as well as provide some of his thoughts on what his role will be on George Karl’s Denver squad.

Already one of the most polarizing athletes in the history of the City of Brotherly Love, Dre had a few quotes in the interview that will not be received so well by those in Philadunkia nation.  Specifically his comments on his role under head coach Doug Collins, returning to “attack mode” on offense in Denver and the sports atmosphere here in Philly.

After the jump, pieces of Zwerling’s Q&A with ‘Dre…and our thoughts on the AI9’s comments.


Q: Speaking of improvement, what’s been the focus for you preparing for the season?

Iguodala: For me, it’s just getting my confidence back offensively. Last year, I didn’t get too many attempts because I was pretty much a facilitator. I don’t want to have that label stuck on me for the rest of my career, so I got back into attack mode. George Karl and I talked about me getting stronger, that I’ve got to attack the basket. The great thing is I did shoot a high 3-point percentage [last season], like top 25 in the NBA. So I’ve just got to keep that drive. I’ve just got to go out there and be able to play my game and not be too restricted. And I’ve got to be consistent. I know I can do it. I’m just looking forward to getting back to my ways offensively, and still bringing my defensive presence to the team.

Philadunkia Notes:  Look, there is no doubt that at times Dre was asked to facilitate the offense under Doug Collins and that may have negatively impacted his scoring numbers, but for Iguodala to imply that he was restricted here in Philly and that he owns an “attack mode” that he is now returning to is just flat wrong.  Collins begged him to “attack” the rim more often.  Sports radio in this town ordered him to be more aggressive and go to the hole.  Hell, we pleaded with him to flip the switch and go into this “attack mode” he describes above.  It rarely happened.  Why??  Because the fact is Dre is very good 5-tool basketball player, but he doesn’t have the mentality or offensive skills that allow a player to attack the rim consistently and have a huge impact in the scoring column night after night.    

Q: I wanted to ask you about sacrifice. If there’s one player in the league who represents that model well, it’s you. You could be a 20-point scorer, but you’ve done a solid job buying into different team systems — and even your numbers have gone down significantly in the prime of your career. Many guys couldn’t imagine that happening, but not you. Where does that mentality come from?

Iguodala: It’s definitely hard. The biggest reason why it’s hard is because, especially in Philly, if you don’t put up a certain number or hit a certain plateau or something like that, they say you’re OK. Interesting, I had a great conversation with George Karl and he said most people talk about the big contract. Everyone wants the big contract. He said, “I had a great team in Seattle and they said the superstars were Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp. But I had rock guys. My guys, no matter what, they were rock guys.” He said, “We got to the [NBA] Finals because of guys like Detlef Schrempf and Nate McMillan.” He said if it weren’t for them, they wouldn’t even have gotten close. He said to me, “You’re compensated correctly for what you do for your team.” And that’s all I ever wanted. Some people understand that, some people don’t. That’s just the way the game is. Most people don’t understand that.

Philadunkia Notes:  Obviously Dre was more then just an “OK” player during his time with the Sixers.  You’d have to be a basketball idiot to think that he was simply “OK”.  Again Andre Iguodala is a very good 5-tool player, but that’s it.  He is not a superstar in this League.  One could argue that he wasn’t even a “star” caliber player during his time in a Sixers uniform (one All-Star selection and currently sitting at #28 in ESPN.com’s 2012 #NBArank project.).  FYI Mr. Zwerling…Iguodala would be hard pressed to average 20 points or more per night for an entire season.  

Q: It’s got to be rewarding for you going from one great basketball mind in Doug Collins to another in George Karl.

Iguodala: Yeah, yeah. Different dynamics. I think George Karl is more of an X’s and O’s guy. Doug Collins is more of a connection guy. But I’ve seen a lot of them. I haven’t been with an X’s and O’s guy like George Karl, so that’s what I’m really going to enjoy.

Q: Overall, how’s the city of Denver been embracing you so far?

Iguodala: Not a knock on any city, but Philly and Denver are kind of the opposites. Philly’s a lot of culture, you get every flavor, which is great. Denver is more slow motion. It’s laid back a little bit more. In Denver, there’s always something. Everybody’s happy, everybody’s smiling, everybody’s in a good mood. In Philly, sometimes it’s gloomy a lot. The weather had kind of an effect on the people. In Denver, everybody’s been friendly, everybody’s been nice. The air is so clean. You just wake up and just [makes a hard breathing noise]. You can smell the fresh air. When you walk into practice, it’s like everybody’s happy, saying, “What’s up, what’s up.” So it’s been really good.

Philadunkia Notes:  Yeah, Yeah…Philly is a negative town.  How many times can we hear this one??? Maybe we are too negative.  Maybe we’re even a little mental.  Maybe we just care too much about our sports teams.  Maybe if you had shown up in Games 3 & 7 against Boston during the 2012 Playoffs we would have forgotten about your giant, cap strapping contract.

Unfortunately in this case we live and die with a Sixers franchise that hasn’t won a championship in nearly 30 years.  In Denver people care way more about the great outdoors, the Broncos and the Avalanche then they do the Nuggs (A team that has never won an NBA title.).  That’s why they’re so happy and that’s why you’ll love it there. 

Q: Looking back, what will you cherish the most about your time in Philly?

Iguodala: Just getting drafted there, scoring my first points, going to the playoffs for the first time and definitely getting out of the first round.

Read the entire interview with Andre Iguodala.


55 Responses to “DRE SPEAKS”

  1. LCK
    1. October 2012 at 16:20

    I disagree with the entire “OK” comment by C. Smith, and the “negative” comment. First I should explain that I’ve been a Sixers fan for nost of my life, and I watch just about every game, (even in season’s when they’ve lost 45-50 times).
    C Simth, should talk to people in philly who have no idea about the sixers. They blame Dre for every lose, and blame him for the teams mediocrity. It’s not like they’re saying that he’s overpaid (which would be a legit argument) they completely dismiss his talent and what he brings to the team. When you said “Maybe if you had shown up in Games 3 & 7 against Boston during the 2012 Playoffs we would have forgotten about your giant, cap strapping contract” I thought it was unfair because he played well in games 2, 4, and 6, while injured and doing a terrific job on pierce. also, who hit the winning free throws vs. chicago and the game winner against orlando a few years ago? Of course all philly fans care about is the eagles and the phillies (even when the eagles suck they get more attention). So I feel for him. It’s one thing to be in a passionate town that’s negative, but in a town that couldn’t care less about your team and has a negative view of you, (even though they don’t know much about you and have only seen you at your low points)? that’s got to hurt (it hurts as a passionate fan for the team too).

    Im not saying that he’s a HOFamer (like Steve Troll) but he was probably the most under appreciated player the sixers ever had. I hope he gets a standing ovation when he comes back, and I don’t mind him saying how he felt (especially since I don’t think he was trying to offend anyone.)

  2. devin
    1. October 2012 at 18:35

    This is the first article I have read on Philadunkia. This is also going to be the last. C. Smith, you are an ignorant ass who sincerely does not understand the mechanics of a good basketball team. I am 22 years old and Dre is by FAR the second most valuable player Philly has had in my lifetime. If Iggy was on Iverson’s Sixers, that team beats the Lakers in 5 games.

  3. Philadunkia
    1. October 2012 at 20:07


    I’m not sure why I’m an ignorant ass?!?

    I recognize that Dre is a very good basketball player and all of the things he brought to the table for the Sixers over the last 8 years. His skill set will be missed, no doubt. However, in the interview Dre acts as though his career / stats were held back in Philly and that he was not appreciated by the fans. Both items are simply not true.

    Dre and the writer are both delusional if they think he is going to hit for 20+ a night in Denver. That’s just not his game. Never has been. Never will be. Collins squeezed as much as he could out of Dre and as good George Karl is, he will not get anything more out of Iguodala.

    Additionally, any good basketball mind realizes the value of a quality 5-tool player like Dre, but he decides in the interview to cite only the clowns who thought he was an “OK” player. We have praised the guy on this site many times as have numerous other Sixer sites and intelligent fans alike.

    However, I disagree with your point that he is the 2nd most valuable player in the last 22 years or so of the Sixers franchise. Barkley played nearly 3 years for the Sixers during your lifetime and obviously Iverson was here for 10+ years, so that puts Dre no better then third on a list of Sixers MVPs during your lifetime.

    Thanks for reading and commenting.

    — C. Smith

  4. Danny
    1. October 2012 at 20:38

    C. Smith
    I agree with everything LCK said. The reason dre never averaged 20 a game was because he was forced to play in an offense where the scoring is balanced. He could easily score 20 a game, but the team would be awful. Like Barkely says, it’s easy to score on a bad team. I’d like to hear what you think about LCK and my comments.

  5. Steve Toll
    1. October 2012 at 20:50

    Iggy > Iverson through their first 8 seasons in the NBA. That’s right, I said it

  6. hank allingham
    1. October 2012 at 21:37

    Steve, really? What are you using to back up that assertion? Iggy had a better ts% but with a much lower usage figure, and there’s no way his ts% stays anywhere near that lever with iversons usage. He had a lower assist rate with a similar turnover rate, and he had a significantly lower per. Iverson took the sixers on his back to the NBA finals.

    Please elaborate.

  7. LCK
    1. October 2012 at 22:22


    Please don”t elaborate. I know you’ll use pointless stats that some guy made up because he was bored.

    Anyway, thanks for the support Danny. Id also like to hear C. Smith’s thoughts on my comment.

  8. John H
    2. October 2012 at 00:35

    There is some people who think Iggy wasn’t the best player on the team last year. I am not one of them, but he wasn’t well above everyone else on the team. AI, Motumbo, Barkley, Hornecek, and now Bynum are sixers in the last 22 years, who I would take over Iggy.

  9. Steve Toll
    2. October 2012 at 00:51

    C. Smith,

    I do agree with many points that you made above but I do disagree about your assessment of Collins and his impact on the team, specifically Iggy.

    I don’t envision Iggy scoring 20 a night in Denver but he will certainly score more than he did the past 2 seasons.


    It’s tougher to score efficiently on a bad team than a good team, that’s an oft overlooked aspect of bad teams.

    Iguodala is a borderline HOF guy right now, another few seasons and he is locked in

  10. Steve Toll
    2. October 2012 at 01:12

    Hank Allington,

    Iverson is a massively overrated player in Philadelphia, the opposite is true with Iguodala. Iggy has been the best player on the Sixers for 8 straight seasons, night in and night out from the moment he stepped on the court as a rookie.

    Iguodala was a better player on offense and defense, unless there is something else that is correlated to winning bball games, I can’t imagine a scenario in which Iverson was a superior player to Iguodala.

    People seem to forget that Iverson in his 00-01 MVP season was immediately the 2nd best play on the team once Dikembe Mutombo was acquired.

    Iverson was an exciting player and scorer, that doesn’t mean he did it well only that he did it alot.

    If you want to get into advanced stats stuff, there is a ton of evidence that points to Iggy > Iverson. If you have read some of my articles and comments, you will know where to look and figure things out

  11. Steve Toll
    2. October 2012 at 04:35


    I like how you mentioned PER but neglected to mention that through their first 8 seasons, Iggy put up more Win Shares than Iverson. Somewhere Jeff McMenamin is giving a slow clap of approval.

    I did like your Hawes article, keep up the good work on that front

  12. Adam
    2. October 2012 at 08:51

    Lets talk about Iggy for a second. What we are going to miss about this guy is the fact that we never had to worry about defensive match up issues with the great guard/forwards of the league. His game on the other side of the ball was lacking. Now, I think he deserved the contract he got, because defense should be rewarded as much as offense. But I’m not going to make arguments about his offensive game. And the idea that last year was his best makes no sense. Just look at the numbers from last year, 2nd lowest assist per game since his 2nd year, FG% below his career average, his FT% of .617 is his career low (and is also completely unacceptable for a center let alone a G/F), his FT/G is also a career low, and finally he saw his lowest minutes per game since his rookie season. The only stark improvement he made was in his 3 point % which was good. I like iggy a lot but in the NBA right now, where there are only 3-4 dominant centers in the league there is no justification for keeping him around when some one like Bynum is available. Especially after you pick up someone like Wright who, while not the same caliber as Iggy, has proven himself as a solid defensive player in the past.

  13. Will
    2. October 2012 at 09:28

    Replace Iverson with Iggy on that ’01 team. Do they make the Finals? I’m hard pressed to believe that they would. I think thats ultimately why Iverson was better.

  14. Hank
    2. October 2012 at 10:04


    You’re right, I didn’t mention win shares, because I don’t own the book where that statistic was introduced and can’t find a definitive explanation of where it comes from. So, from my perspective, that is just a number that statistics websites spit out at me. One thing that is clear to me, though, is that advanced defensive statistics (which are obviously used in overall win shares produced) are far from perfect, and are filled with possible flaws. So, while I’ll look at defensive metrics and other metrics that they are inputs for, I’m not going to put a ton of weight behind them. For now (at least for me) defensive evaluation is significantly more subjective than offensive evaluation. I look at adjusted points allowed when players are on and off the floor, I watch the games, I watch the replays, and I come to a conclusion.

    I’m sure this is far too subjective for your tastes. If you’d like to give me a detailed explanation of the logic and calculations behind win shares produced, I’ll be happy to read it and (partially) revise my previous statement if I think the statistic is valid.

  15. Hank
    2. October 2012 at 10:25

    Ah, and I guess after all this I should chime in on Iggy. I don’t think that Iggy is better than Iverson. In my opinion, a player than can fill it up at the level Iverson could is extremely rare and equally valuable. The season that he had in 2000-2001 was incredible, and I don’t think that the Sixers go nearly as far if you replace him with Iguodala. Who’s going to score? Eric Snow? George Lynch? Aaron Mckie? Tyrone Hill? I don’t see it happening.

    However, I will agree with Steve that Iguodala is probably the most underrated Sixer I’ve ever seen. Iggy is one of the few players in the NBA that you can confidently throw on the opposing team’s best scorer at either the 2 or the 3. He is great at finishing in transition, and his court vision is astounding for a 3 (highest assist rate by a wide margin at his position). But, he can’t be a #1 offensive option on a successful team. He’s not nearly efficient enough, and I think if the Nuggets want him to score 20+ per game, they are either in for a rude awakening or are going to be significantly worse than last year (more likely the former.)

  16. Philadunkia
    2. October 2012 at 13:36

    LCK & Danny,

    Not sure we’re in total disagreement. I don’t think Dre is simply an “OK” player. As I said in the post, I believe he is a very good 5-tool player. I have been one of his biggest supporters over the years, but I recognize what type of player he is…He is not a star nor a 20+ points per night scorer and I am okay with that fact, because I recognize all the other things he does. He does not excel at “being the guy” and again I’m okay with that idea. But from the interview I think Dre believes he can be “the guy” in Denver and I believe that will never happen.

    I don’t talk to people who have no idea about the Sixers, but I do agree that the average guy on the street stupidly blames Iguodala for a host of ills that plagued the Sixers over the last few years. I also believe that under Collins his scoring suffered because he was in a “balanced offense” system.

    There is also no doubt he was huge in hitting THE FTs in the Chicago series, especially considering how badly he struggled from the line all year in 2011-12.

    However I would tell you that a player of Dre’s high caliber SHOULD hit those FT’s. That’s what he gets paid to do. He also gets paid to play well in Game 7 vs. Boston and he did not do that.

    I do disagree with Danny that Dre will be a consistant 20+ point scorer in Denver. He doesn’t drive the ball to tim enough, nor is he a good enough FT shooter to hit for 20+ a night. Even when he wasn’t restricted by DC’s balanced offense and his FT shooting was much better, his best scoring years were in th 17-19 ppg. range.

    Thanks for reading and commenting.

    — C. Smith

  17. Jack
    2. October 2012 at 13:56

    Steve toll,
    Dude stop trying to impress the higher ups with your simple ass revelations. Allen Iverson during his prime was the single most difficult player to guard and plan for in the nba. Like you make me so mad man, like do you even watch the sixers, you throw these numbers out there with no context. I know your going to come back with some lame ass stats to support your lame ass assertions, win shares wtf are you even talking about. Anybody who watched the man play in his time knows that he was the only one that could create shots on that team and it hurt his numbers similiar derrick rose. One of my biggest gripes with the stat craze dating back to Gladwells ill intentioned article for the new yorker defaming iverson is the whole movement seems geared towards identifying the diamond in the rough player (Battier) but then writers use those same stats to define an undefinable competive genius Allen Iverson. Sorry if im harsh im just huge fan sick of the haters.

  18. Danny
    2. October 2012 at 15:01

    C. Smith,

    I never said Dre would score twenty a night with Denver. He definetly won’t. I just said he could, but the team would suck.


    I’m just asking, do you know the multiple equations and numbers used to define win shares, defensive efficiency, and various other stats? I’m, just asking, because you rely on them way too much to be ignorant of how they work. And even the guy who made them up would say you use them stupidly for your arguments. I’m a huge Iguodala fan, and I’ve defended him in the comments above, but to say he’s better than Iverson is ridiculous.
    Anyway, I’d like to hear what you think.

  19. LCK
    2. October 2012 at 15:21


    I agree that Iguodala was a better defender, but BETTER OFFENSIVELY THAN ALLEN IVERSON!!!!! If I live to hear a more ridiculous basketball statement, I’m done with sports in general. Iverson was six foot tall and could score fifty while injured. He had way more playoff success as the “man” on the team than iguodala, more than capable of holding his own in shootouts vs. other stars (remember against the Raptors and vince carter he scored 50 twice and got a career high in assists one game.) And exactly how is Dikembe better than iverson? I love Mutombo, but he couldn’t get his own shot, and failed to do the one thing we needed him to do: contain Shaq (although I admit, this is near impossible for any center, even as one as great defensively as Mutombo). Even iverson haters would disagree with the idea that both Mutombo and Iggy were better than “the Answer”. Show a little respect for the guy who would play with all his heart for this team, even with injuries that would put people like you and me in a hospital.
    I would like to hear if you agree with me on any of this (which you probably won’t, but I’d like to see your rebuttal of pointless stats. Why? I don’t know, I guess I’m just as idiotic as you.)

  20. Dervin
    2. October 2012 at 15:53

    I’m of two minds about Iggy being a 20ppg scorer.
    If he was capable of performing offensively at that level, he would have performed at that level. Smart teams push their scorers to score.


    The Iggy years were the nadir of NBA Management, in short the Sixers never had a rebuilding plan after they got rid of Iverson. Instead of young, cheap and bad for a few seasons, they were expensive and mediocre. Instead of putting together a team with complimentary skills, they got a bunch of players who played the exact same style and the exact same position. And the less said about the Brand Fiasco the better (note: I think Brand is a good guy and a good basketball player, and it’s not his fault that he signed a stupidly generous contract).

    I’ll let somebody else talk about the coaches.

    So, maybe Iggy can be a 20 ppg a night. F*ck it for all the nonsense he’s suffered, I’m going to give him the benefit of the doubt for this year.

  21. hank allingham
    2. October 2012 at 19:01

    Ryan, I don’t think that’s true. From a wins produced perspective(not necessarily true wins produced, but the established advanced metric), he’s correct. But that seems to be the statistic he leans on, and I still have yet to receive a detailed explanation of that statistic. From every other offensive metric I consider useful (besides ts% which fluctuates greatly with increased usage) Iverson was superior.

  22. John H
    2. October 2012 at 23:50

    When you have people questioning who the best player on the team is when you have an above .500 record then you are not a HOFamer. Iggy is tough, but he is not great. I agree with Will, you put Iggy in place of AI during the 01 season, then you would have a slightly above .500 team. Iggy will have his best year next year in Denver. He has a good supporting cast and he has gained a lot of pressure experience from the Olympics and the 2012 playoffs. Good Luck Iggy.

  23. JBH3
    3. October 2012 at 12:31

    Fair well Iggy… he was a good player, not a great player. He’s a 2nd or 3rd option on a Championship team. He does not have a consistent mid-range game, and truth be told his strenght IS more in facilitating the offense, rather than being the offense. His defense and athleticism is what seperates him and are his top strengths, and if he does have some “attack mode” that can be shown outside of NBA2K13 (lol) then lets see it!

  24. Chris H.
    3. October 2012 at 16:09

    Great debates guy. I agree with the author more about Iggy than most did here. I don’t think that he was underrated or overrated so much as he was unfortunately tasked with leading the Sixers. He is a good to great defender, but how many times did he lock down a true superstar? Sure he is great against Richard Jefferson types, but for elite players I think his defense was not nearly as good as their offense.
    He was without a doubt the Sixers best defender, but he was only a good third option on offense at best once HE decided to stop driving to the hole. I swear I really liked the guy, but it was time to blow the whole thing up and start over, so to speak. I know people like Steve Toll use tons of various sabermeterics to glorify Igoudala but completely dismiss someone like Iverson (and I won’t even begin to touch that nonsensical argument), but the fact of the matter is he is now getting his chance to not be the go to guy. George Karl can make the claim that Detlef Shrempf or Nate McMillian were the “rocks” of the team, but they also weren’t making the top salary of the Sonics. If it were up to me he would have been gone two seasons ago, but he did helps us land Bynum (sticking my tongue out childishly at you Steve). I wish Iggy nothing but the best, but Denver will see how great he is when he is hoisting up unecessary 3’s or going 6-13 from the FT line.

  25. Tyler
    3. October 2012 at 22:50

    Iggy averaged 19.9 ppg in the 07-08 season…he could average 20 ppg for a season

  26. Steve Toll
    4. October 2012 at 00:55

    For players who have been in the NBA since at least 04-05, here are the 25 most productive guys. For instance, CP3 isnt on the list because his first year was 05-06

    Lebron #1
    Dwight #2
    KG #3
    Wade #4a
    Duncan #4b

    Dirk, Pau, Kidd are tier 5

    Nash, Kobe, Marion, Pierce, Iggy are tier 6

    Manu, Billups, Ray Allen are tier 7

    Tyson Chandler, Bosh, Camby, Ben Wallace and Gerald Wallace are tier 8

    Parker, AK47, JET, Josh Smith are tier 9

  27. Steve Toll
    4. October 2012 at 01:14

    Iggy is an Audemars Piguet and Iverson is a Rolex. One is impressive to 99% of the population, the other is unrecognized be 99% of the population

  28. Arch
    4. October 2012 at 01:33

    Bottom line, Iggy is a tough NBA guy to judge because while he is so valuable for his versatility and his defensive prowess are absolutely critical to moving deep into the playoffs those same factors force you to overpay him (because if you don’t a Charlotte or Memphis will) and with the current salary structure you can only pay two or three players that money at most. For that kind of money you need someone with the offensive skill set to get 22-25 points a night against the other team’s best defender and also be able to be the guy when you need a bucket at the end of the game and that isn’t where he’s comfortable. I think the Sixers did the most they could with him which is essentially move him for the second best center in the league. I definitely feel like he got a bum rap when he was here though, he’s a very unique and gifted player.

  29. Hank
    4. October 2012 at 10:54


    Not sure if you’re missing my comments, but I’m really interested to hear where Win Shares produced comes from in terms of both logic and math/calculations. You used it as your basis for the Iggy > Iverson argument, you used it in your piece pointing out the large number of players that are better value than Bynum, and it seems (to me) to be your favorite statistic.

    Like I’ve said, I can’t find a definitive explanation of what drives this metric. I assume that, since you use it so much, you would be able to provide this for me.

  30. freezer
    4. October 2012 at 12:10

    Your list is irrelevant dude just like your stats, if you want to compare iversons career to someone elses try using his prime years in the league as an example. And your way to simplistic in your approach. If I were writing about the Sixers for an espn affiliated site I’d sure as hell make sure I was schooled well in the history of the team I’m covering. You probably think dana barros ranks ahead of AI. Go watch some games man that in fact go back and watch game 1 of the 2001 finals and see how many guys on your lists could of stepped up to an undefeated lakers team and steal a game with freaking george lynch and eric snow on the roster.

  31. LCK
    4. October 2012 at 15:08


    You don’t even define productive. Elaborate. Actually. I don’t think I even want to hear it. You’re probably flustered by our arguments since you didn’t make a good response.

  32. Steve Toll
    5. October 2012 at 00:18

    A 2 is worth .95, a 3 is worth 1.95

    A missed shot is worth -.7

    A turnover is worth -1.2

    An offensive rebound is worth .985 points

    Before you count in assists and the minimal value of getting a foul.

    Iggy +2.02 on offense per game in 37.7 minutes in 615 games

    Iverson is +.015 on offense per game in 41.4 minutes in 535 games

    Iverson averaged .8 assists and 3.7 more foul shots per game. It’s hard to quantify the value if an assist and drawing a foul is worth something, so the Iverson does close the gap in that regard.

    Iggy also played more minutes in more games, which itself is inherently valuable.

    So know you see how I came to my conclusion of Iggy > Iverson on offense.

  33. Fred
    5. October 2012 at 17:48

    I was a commenter on Steve Toll’s last “article” and I want to say that I’m glad it’s almost been a month since. He, as a writer, is in a position where he is expected to use logic and a malleable mind (ability to digest criticism from detractors to his written opinion) and instead it seems he just uses rhetoric and an attitude of pouty dismissiveness.

    It annoyed me greatly when reading his work because it felt like he was stealing from Philadunkia and it’s readership, stealing Philadunkia’s headline space and our time and sanity. When you have a dissenting opinion, you’d better be prepared to back it up because the argument will come back to you. Instead, Steve Toll’s response is usually either hacked-up statistics that no one uses, carefully cropped statistics that mislead, or condescending rhetoric. This comment thread is a great example of all of them.

    This is my first time back because I unknowingly went on a subconscious boycott of this site because of Steve Toll. Thank you Philadunkia for at least realizing your mistake.

  34. Steve Toll
    5. October 2012 at 19:43


    Basketball Reference can give you a detailed explanation of WS.

    While it does calculate some defensive stuff, it doesnt do nearly as good a job as its offensive calculations.

    Defense is much harder to quantify. Versatility is one of the most important parts of being a good defender for obvious reasons, and its more than just guarding multiple positions.

    Iguodala could cover Kevin Love, Lebron, Kobe and Derrick Rose in some manner and each in varying degrees depending on the situation.

    Iverson, well you know…

    In regards to my above statements about values, they are averages. Even still, Iggy > Iverson on offense and Defense isnt close Iggy>>>>Iverson

  35. Jeff McMenamin
    5. October 2012 at 22:55

    Steve Toll,

    Iverson is an…

    1x MVP
    1x ROY
    11x All-Star
    4x Scoring champ
    11x 50+ point games(not including playoffs)
    3x Steals leader
    3x NBA first-team
    3x NBA second-team
    1x NBA third-team

    He’s 17th on the all-time points list with 24,368 while playing in close to 200 less games than most of the players who are ahead or below him.

    He’s 2nd all-time in playoff ppg to only Michael Jordan with 29.7 per game.

    He led a team to the NBA finals in 2000-01 which had arguably less talent on it than last years Sixers team.

    Iverson is also one of the best ball thieves of all-time. He’s currently 12th on the all-time list with 1,983 steals in 914 career games. In comparison Iguodala has 1,076 in 615 career games.

    He also, has a 99% chance of being in the HOF according to your beloved basketball reference…

    Now lets take a look at Iguodala shall we…

    1x All-Star
    12x 30+ point games (0 40/50+)
    1x NBA defensive second-team

    He’s not even on the top 250 all-time in scoring…Don’t know where he ranks on the list, but to put it in perspective he has only 9,422 career points compared to #249 Gilbert Arenas’ 11,402…Let’s just say at least 200 more spots below on the list(and that’s being generous).

    Made it out of the FIRST ROUND of the playoffs once in his career with arguably a better team than the one Iverson took to the finals.

    He’s currently 39th on the active list of players who could make the HOF with a 2% chance according to basketball reference…

    In no way, shape, or form can Andre Iguodala cover Kevin Love, LeBron or Derrick Rose. If you can show me evidence of him effectively doing so I’d like to see it. Yes last season Iguodala had the game of his life covering Kobe, but usually Kobe comes to Philly and absolutely embarrasses Iguodala.

    Also…just another fun stat to throw out there…Iverson has 6,735 career FT’s made on 8,168 attempts (78%) as a guy who is 6 inches smaller and 40 pounds lighter than Iguodala. Iguodala has 2,257 FT’s made on 3,063 career attempts (73%).

    Looks to me like someone sacrificed his body for his teams success, unlike Iguodala who shy’s away from driving the ball to the rim when he has one of the strongest frames in the league at his position.

    Next time you have something to say…Please make it something worth while.


  36. Lennix
    6. October 2012 at 03:03

    Why do we all play into tolls asinine posts?

    Never has anything relative, informative or positive to say. Yeah we will all miss igoudala clogging up minutes for our younger players like Thad and Turner. He said it himself that Thad is a SF and isn’t that where iggy plays?hmm oh yeah the idea of iggy playing relentless defense against the other teams best player won us all over. It was his amazing free throw shooting that won me over. His great shot selection was something that had me just want to go out and buy his jersey. Lets face it, this move had to be done and the less than one percent(Toll aka Troll)is the only one who really cares. Im tired of watching a team stuck in slow motion. Lets be excited we’re finally going to watch actual three point shooters. Even if there is poor shot selection, it cant be any worse than what iggy brought to the table in that regard( I know he was great last year from 3) Lets be excited to be able to watch our number 2 pick actually get more minutes and finally see what he can do. Lets see if Jayrue can actually be an NBA pointguard. I cant wait to see thad with this new team who actually might benefit the most in this offense if he takes iggys role in it. Is it safe to say Thad can put up at least 15 ppg if hes our second scoring option? Our bench is deeper and bigger, i really look forward to watching the new night shift because some of these players have been starters on other teams. IMO our best bench in recent memory(on paper of course) c’mon who isnt excited about kwame brown? and finally Bynum. Theres a reason some players are drafted out of high school, he is one of them. He had the privilge of learning under phil jackson, kareem. PLaying with Kobe and his championship caliber teams and also playing in a city where basketball is the number one sport, not the fourth. This should be a fun and interesting season. Lets hope and pray that Steve becomes a nugget fan, moves to Denver and possibly find a way to use stats to make ty lawson the next derrick rose or russell westbrook or galinari more favorable than dirk and shoot why not, kenneth faried the next kevin garnett. isnt that what he does? compare stars or studs to WORLDWIDE SUPERSTARS. what a joke

  37. LCK
    6. October 2012 at 08:39


    You’re just as bad as Steve. I agree 100% that AI was better, but you threw way too many unnecessary false claims at Iguodala. Iguodala is a top tier defender, and I would argue that he gave just as much for the team as Iverson, it’s just that he doesn’t show it, which is sometimes a turn off for fans. As for his record vs. Kobe, I’ve seen him hold Kobe to 8 or 10 points (I couldn’t find the exact stat, maybe you can, it was around 05). He does a good job about have the time they play Kobe, and that’s all you can expect from him, since Kobe is an absolute monster.


    Thank you for taking your time to respond to my post about what production is. But I laughed at it. It almost seems like the guy who made it up just picked it out of a hat. Can you explain how he came up with the values. It’s a legit question, since he may have just picked them out of a hat for all we know.

  38. Pat
    6. October 2012 at 10:22

    Jeff wins, steve toll you suck!

  39. Steve Toll
    6. October 2012 at 15:26

    Teams better with 2012 Iggy instead of 01 AI : Miami, OKC, LAL, LAC, BOS, MEM, IND, CHI, UTAH, ATL, NYK, DEN, SAS, DAL, ATL and of course, Philadelphia

    Of the 16 playoff teams, Iggy would seem to be a better addition than 01 Iverson on every single team

    If you disagree, please say which team would be better off with Iverson instead of Iguodala and then please put up that teams lineup with both players inserted.

    For example:

    OKC: Westbrook, Harden, Iggy, Durant, Ibaka
    OKC: Iverson, Westbrook, Harden, Durant, Ibaka

    Memphis: AI, Tony Allen, Rudy Gay, ZBO, Marc Gasol
    Memphis: Conley, Iggy, Gay, ZBO, Marc Gasol

    Boston: Rondo, AI, Pierce, Bass, KG
    Boston: Rondo, Iggy, Pierce, Bass, KG

    LAL: Iverson, Kobe, MWP, Gasol, Bynun
    LAL: Sessions, Kobe, Iggy, Gasol, Bynum

    NYK: Lin, Iverson, Melo, Amare, Chandler
    NYK: Lin, Iggy, Melo, Amare, Chandler

    UTAH: Harris, Iverson, Hayward, Millsap Jefferson
    UTAH: Harris, Iggy, Hayward, Millsap, Jefferson

    CHI: Rose, Iverson, Deng, Boozer, Noah
    CHI: Rose, Iggy, Deng, Boozer, Noah

  40. Lennix
    8. October 2012 at 13:37

    your statistics are based off a league that changed after 2001. You know that rule where you could only play man defense. That should be put in consideration
    Also put bynum on all of those teams and theyre winners too. moot point

  41. Sloetry
    8. October 2012 at 14:25

    I’m with Fred’s comment. This site has lost it’s credibility due to certain contributors, well perhaps one who seems beyond editorial control. To think it carries ESPNs’ blessing. But the controversial and blatantly antagonistic pieces have boosted the number of people who comment, so do you think the site really care? It’s a shame, because like Fred I get too annoyed to look at the site these days, and when I do, I feel compelled to write like this and not about basketball.

  42. freezer
    8. October 2012 at 15:11

    Mr Toll 01 Iverson would be the best player on 13 of those teams. I admire your commitment to this arguement but the simple fact is your trying to compare a defensive stopper to a man no team in his prime ever figured out how to contain. Now you keep trying to compare them statiscally but theres no comparison. 01 Iverson was a incredibally successful player. That season was the apex of Larry Browns plan to turn the sixers into a contender. The basis of the plan was to assemble a shutdown stopper team with iverson and mckie creating all the offense. This is pretty similiar concept to whats going on in chicago right now and it seems to be a cheap flexible way to build a contender but theyre are two essential ingredients to it. Number 1 is you need a superstar to carry the burden offensively, someone who can create a shot everytime down the floor because the rest of the players on the floor are almost entirely commited to defense, number 2 is you need a coach whos there for the long haul because when he leaves the roster he assembles is going to be pretty useless to any 1st year coach. Iverson may have been alittle turnover prone that season and shot a low percentage but that was to be expected, i dont have time to research this but i know he shot somewhere between 400. and 430 from the floor while getting to the line at probably like 10 times a game and he took about 30 shots a game, for me those numbers dont really reflect how important he was on offense. for large stretches of the game Iverson would be on the floor with players that shot even lower percentages, he would see consistent triple teams, he would get hammered going to the line and hed get up and scream in your face. The rotation brown used that season for the playoffs was (snow, iverson, lynch, hill, mutumbo, with mckie, kukoc, and some players who really had no business on a contender but they did theyre jobs), if you analytically explain to me how this team got threw an extremely hot pacers, raptors, bucks, and a lakers team that went into the finals undefeated i’ll give you some credit but my feeling is there is no explanation for how this team was successful. Now you might say why did he never get back to the finals if he was so good. Iversons career was extremely mismanaged. I think very fondly of the larry brown years to this day because browns teams played with a distinct philosophy that the entire team bought into it was really great, philadelphia down and dirty basketball that was never recreated for iverson after brown left. the reason iverson doesnt get the credit he deserves today is because he played on lottery teams until he was traded in philadelphia. There was no team building going on at all when brown left. i remember for a few years kenny thomas was our 2nd best players. Yes kenny thomas… Now for you to get on this site devoted to philly basketball and take a shit on everything sacred with your punkass MIT propganda is sixer blasphemy. Its honestly becoming degrading coming to this site because of you, you dont know shit about basketball. Basically im sure the next article everyone wants to see you post is your letter of resignation, im sure theres a job in romneys campaign for someone like yourself who can take numbers and make them mean whatever your agenda is.

  43. Steve
    8. October 2012 at 16:45




    For Jeff,


    Thad can absolutely score 15+ppg and Faried is Kevin Love 2.0 with less offense.


    Those are numbers given to me by the right hand man of a NBA GM. Other numbers for instance, an extended elbow shot is worth 1.035 and a non3 corner shot is worth 1.125

    There’s tons of stuff like that I have info on, obviously those are averages and need to be adjusted for each player but that stuff is a good starting point

    Iverson was a 1x all star in 07-08, he was never All NBA worthy as is without a doubt the most overrated player in NBA history. Give me Tyson Chandler, Serge Ibaka, Tony Allen and Bruce Bowen then Iverson might be more valuable than Iggy, otherwise it isn’t close.

    Basketball is about efficiency, defense and versatility. Iverson was good at bulk scoring, which can work but is a terrible way to win games and requires a team that has a bunch of very good players that play D, rebound and score super efficiently the few times they get to shoot.

  44. Jeff McMenamin
    8. October 2012 at 20:42

    First off…Steve. I read through all of the articles you sent. Most of the articles are in depth commentary’s. I actually am a fan of most of what Brian from Depressed Fan comes up with. I respect his view of Andre Iguodala as a defender at the time, however I’d be hard pressed to think that he’d agree with your assessments of Iverson as a player for the Sixers. In fact this is the last piece he wrote on Iverson and the affect he had on the team in the end of his career…

    Here’s some bathroom reading material on Iverson for you as well…

    (Read about #4 on the list Kobe Bryant…)

    (Read specifically GhostofGeorgeLynch’s comments)



    As you can see. The gist of the articles talk about how without Iverson, the Sixers would’ve had historically awful teams. Billy King had no idea how to build a team around Iverson or hire the right coach for his strengths.

    They also discuss how the NBA was an iso/shot chucking league at the time, compared to the intricate offensive and defensive schemed league it is today (or like I’ve been telling you for some time, point guard run league).

    To blame Iverson for doing what he was told by his coaches and doing it among the best in the league year in and year out (score the basketball) shouldn’t be a knock on him. Carmelo Anthony is the closest player in the NBA today to Allen Iverson in terms of scoring ability. He takes the same amount of criticism for his lack of defense and ball hoggish ways, but nobody questions his ability to score the basketball. He’s similarly a yearly all-star, among the most popular players in the league, will most likely be an NBA HOF, and one of the toughest players to guard in the league today. Are you claiming that Carmelo Anthony then is a worse offensive player than Andre Iguodala because he doesn’t score as “efficiently” as Iguodala?

    Btw…Currently Melo has a 69% chance to make the HOF per basketball reference.

  45. Lennix
    9. October 2012 at 00:15

    dont compare anyone to kevin love. farried is reggievans with more offense. As long as we are not talking about things that make sense jrue and turner for rubio.

  46. Lennix
    9. October 2012 at 00:46


  47. Steve Toll
    9. October 2012 at 01:09

    Iguodala might not be able to stop Lebron from doing his thing and hitting his career averages when they play, that I will admit.

    The value comes in from the lack of double teams required when a player like Iggy is covering Lebron.

    In a search for the best offensive player in basketball, the first thing to do is figure out what player is double teamed the most.

    So while Lebron is putting up huge numbers against Iggy, against every other team in the NBA Lebron is more valuable on offense because of all the extra double teams that are used against him.

  48. Steve
    9. October 2012 at 03:02


    I would appreciate it if you don’t tell me what I can and can’t do, especially on a topic where you are absolutely incorrect.

    Faried is actually much closer to Love than Reggie Evans.

    Here is each player at 22 years old: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=evansre01&y1=2003&p2=farieke01&y2=2012&p3=loveke01&y3=2011

    I don’t read bleacherreport but I can say for certain, as I have said many times before: Chris Anderson is the best NBA free agent and has been for months, I wouldn’t be surprised if he wasn’t on that list. The 76ers adding him would certainly make me consider taking the over on 47.5 wins, which is currently a pipe dream involving major injuries to every team in the East.


    Iverson 08 >>>>>> Iverson 04 >>> Kobe 12

    Bill Simmons has some interesting stuff to say and that’s why he writes but he is out an out wrong comparing those 3 seasons.

    Kobe was terrible this season as I’ve said many times. The Lakers will be better off this season, as they would have last season if Jodie Meeks played > minutes than Kobe at SG. Kobe also followed up a terrible NBA season with an equally terrible Olympics.

    I refuse to read bleacherreport or fan opinion articles. Iverson is a basketball icon, I own an Iverson jersey, not an Iguodala jersey.

    I don’t blame Iverson for putting up shots, I blame him for not being efficient on offense and not being a good defender. Iverson had pretty good teammates during his time in Philadelphia, it’s just easier for everyone to say that he didn’t because Iverson is an icon and besmirching an icon is no fun, usually.

    Carmelo vs, Iguodala: On a team with a bunch of guys who can’t score efficiently, Melo > Iggy if we are only talking offense and its marginal at best in Melo’s favor…………….. but since basketball involves defense too, I’d still take Iggy on that team

    If you’re talking about a random playoff team Iggy > Melo and its not even close for both offense and defense.

  49. LCK
    9. October 2012 at 21:53


    You still didn’t answer my question. HOW DID THEY COME UP WITH THE NUMBERS??!! Until you do, I think it is useless to use stats for backup. By the way, Meeks > Kobs??? You know what, I’m not even gonna bother. I, and nobody else, wants to know your… I was gonna say reasoning, but there was no reason in this.

  50. Fred
    9. October 2012 at 22:56

    Steve Toll-“Basketball is about efficiency, defense and versatility”

    No it is not. This is a pure baseball analyst statement.

    Basketball, like most other team sports (not baseball) is about spacing. It’s about using the space you’re given, how much space you can effect. The fact that you believe that basketball is anything but proves you’re just a stathead who doesn’t watch the game with an analytical eye. The fact that Iggy just happened to be there when a rebound fell into his hands is worth just as much on a computer screen as Bynum outmuscling his man to snatch a board above the rim shows you can’t just rely on numbers. One rebound is not like the other, but you can’t tell that from their boxscores. It statheads that reduce people’s athleticism to vague words like “efficiency”. Remember in Speights’ rookie year he had a PER of like 22 for most of it? Can anyone even try to defend that stat?

    And about all this nonsense Steve Toll has drummed up about putting Iggy 2012 and AI 2001 on the different playoff teams, let’s put it this way: Put Iggy 2012 on Sixers 2001 and AI 2001 on Sixers 2012. New 2001 Sixers would be great defensively but barely put up 80 a night, and I feel even that’s a reach because 2012 Sixers struggled to do that at stretches ie. the playoffs. New 2012 Sixers would still be super athletic on defense, and they would have scorer whose impossible to defend. AI wouldn’t have to carry such a load because his supporting cast, mainly Jrue, would be so much better.

  51. Lennix
    10. October 2012 at 00:40

    so if you replaced farried on the nuggets with kevin love and farried on the wolves kenneth farried would be the go to guy for rubio and he would have similar numbers to Love? thats a stretch
    i understand they have the same tenacity on boards and defense. You just cant compare the two players especially when kevin love commands double teams, like lebron would. shoots threes efficiently, spreads the floor, one of the best passing big men. dont get me wrong I was all about drafting farried over vucevic because i do recognize what this team needed, rebounding. i hated the reggie evans for kapono trade as well. I was angry when we didnt draft paul milsap in 06 because i knew we had a rebounding problem. you cant exactly base your arguments over your statistics for what this teams really needs. you have to watch this team to see where we are at fault. i think we drafted rodney carney and bobby jones that draft? over the best rebounder in the country in milsap but then i can be angry we didnt draft cousins over turner so we had a player for igoudala to pass in the middle. we dont necessarily draft that well on this team. I wanted to keep iggy! and poor drafting made it so we were in a position where we had to get rid of him. again we had to. statistics arent bringing him back
    again a year ago our problem was not having a gritty rebounder/defender and we didnt take the best one in the country. i agree farried would be a great player on this team no question. superstar? no. Kevin Love is going to be a superstar if he isn’t one already. He’s a five tool guy. farried could be a poor mans version of Love perhaps, like iggy is a poor mans version of pippen. love is on another level.
    in all seriousness, if i had to pick between farried and love for this exact team we have right now? prob could flip a coin. but in terms of money,farried. in terms of wanting to be better than the rest of the NBA, Love. you need superstars to win in this league and having more than one makes sense to me.
    I think you need to slow down on your iverson to iggy comparison as well. Iverson reinvented this league practically. 2 all-star mvps and a league mvp? c’mon. I think you’d have a better time on this site arguing work ethic because if iverson had igoudalas…
    it all comes down to who has the most talent night in and night out
    I dont argue with stats, i’ve read moneyball plenty, i understand that stuff. Every team needs a face of the franchise, a superstar. we had to use iggy to start over and obtain one in bynum. I’m pretty sure every team that has won the finals had a fairly dominant big man or two. Im trying to think of a team that has won without one.

  52. Steve Toll
    10. October 2012 at 15:23


    Research, just like how I know a shot from the extended elbow is worth on average 1.035 pts.

    Kobe took up a lot of offense that should have went to Bynum and Gasol who are both superior offensive players to Kobe, with Meeks playing that wouldn’t of happened plus Meeks would have had a much higher EV per possession than Kobe and Matt Barnes would have played more minutes.

    What you get is a team X points better on offense and Y points worse on defense where Y is less than the value of X.


    I’m not going to convince you otherwise, when you say things like “spacing” and fail to recognize that Iggy was a more efficient scorer than Iverson was when comparing 12 to 01.

    Iverson was someone who was good at having lots of points in the box score at the end of games, that doesn’t make him impossible to guard. Scoring a lot and Scoring efficiently are 2 different things.

    Your rebounding point is obvious, so let me ask you:

    Rank these 4 shots based on value in a miss for the offensive team: 3pt shot, Free Throw, Layup and Mid Range Jumper.


    Here are each players averages at 22 against the Lakers. Love played 4 regular season games in the 2011 season against LAL. Faried played 8 games in 2012, 7 of which were playoff games against LAL

    Love Faried
    35.5 mpg 26.5 mpg
    12.8pts 10pts
    TS% 45.7 TS% 61.4
    8.3 DREB 5.8 DREB
    5.5 OREB 3.8 OREB
    2.7 AST .6 AST
    .5 STL .9 STL
    .25 BLK 1 BLK
    2.3 TO 1.9 TO

    I agree with many of your points as I spent most of your paragraph nodding and going “YUP” and KLove is a superstar, he is at worst the 6th best player in the NBA. Faried is very very good, it will be interesting to see what he does this year and he is a safe bet for Most Improved with 30+ mpg

    Iverson didn’t reinvent the NBA, he was just a short guy with a lot of heart who was completely overrated.

    I for sure agree with your point about bigs and Championships, here is a recent breakdown I did in the comment section of a previous article:

    To further make my point, here are the 3 best players on each championship team since the Jordan era.

    1x – Lebron, Dirk, KG, Pierce, Ray Allen, Bosh, Chandler, JET, Bynum, Odom, Tony Parker, Udonis Haslem, Ben Wallace, Rip Hamilton, Billups, Derek Fisher, Avery Johnson, Kukoc, Ron Harper, Rodman, Drexler

    2x – Hakeem, D-Rob, Pau, Wade, Otis Thorpe

    3x – Manu and Horace Grant

    4x – Shaq, Duncan, Horry (Yes, Horry was a top 3 player on 4 title teams)

    5x – Kobe

    6x – Jordan and Pippen

    Point Guards have comprised 4.5% of the top 3 talent: Parker, Fisher, Avery

    Combo guards: Kobe, Jordan, Wade, Manu, JET, Billups, have comprised 27% of the top 3.

    Pure 2 guards: Rip and Ray make up 3%

    Combo Forwards – Lebron, Pippen, Pierce, Horry, Drexler, Odom, Kukoc, Ron Harper are 24% of the top 3

    Power Forwards – Dirk, KG, Duncan (2x), Rodman, Horace Grant, Otis Thorpe, Pau, Bosh, Udonis Haslem, are 21% of the top 3

    Centers- Shaq, Hakeem, D-Rob, Duncan (2x), Chandler, Ben Wallace, Bynum make up 19.5%

  53. Steve Toll
    10. October 2012 at 15:30

    Here are each players averages at 22 against the Lakers. Love played 4 regular season games in the 2011 season against LAL. Faried played 8 games in 2012, 7 of which were playoff games against LAL

    35.5 mpg
    TS% 45.7
    8.3 DREB
    5.5 OREB
    2.7 AST
    .5 STL
    .25 BLK
    2.3 TO

    26.5 mpg
    TS% 61.4
    5.8 DREB
    3.8 OREB
    .6 AST
    .9 STL
    1 BLK
    1.9 TO

  54. Lennix
    11. October 2012 at 01:12

    and iverson was only overrated because he did have all the talent to succeed, he just didn’t put the work in to get the status we all thought he could reach. Iverson highlights will always be more legendary than igoudala highlights lol

  55. LCK
    12. October 2012 at 22:00

    Give me an example of the math used.

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