HOLIDAY: ALL-STAR SG ?!?

Posted by: Steve Toll
11/27/12 10:04 am EST

Doug Collins has the rare distinction of coaching Michael Jordan, the Greatest of All Time (G.O.A.T.).

For a short period of time Collins also coached the best PG of All-Time.  A player who was like a maestro, who would make CP3 and Magic seem ordinary.  However, this player didn’t last long as a point guard, because that player was Michael Jordan.  

Asked to play the point, Jordan had a 21 game stretch over the 1989 season, where he averaged 11.4 assists and 3.6 turnovers, while having 11 triple-doubles in 13 games at one point.  Over the course of that season, Jordan averaged 8 assists per game and had a 2.25 : 1 assist:turnover ratio.  That MJ-point guard experiment of course did not last.  Still, Jordan’s time as a floor general makes me think when I see Holiday play, that Jrue is being miscast.

Through some research, I have discovered as my eye test has hypothesized: Jrue is an All-Star combo guard 

 

Holiday in my estimation has been in the PG role for far too many games in his career.  To truly reach his potential, the ball needs to be put in Evan Turner’s hands night in and night out.  That is why he was drafted, right?  It’s within the realm of possibility that Holiday could be a 22 pts., 3.5 rebs., 6 assist combo guard.  The best attribute that Jrue Holiday has is that he can score the basketball.  While 30+ points like in Sunday night’s performance is a lot to ask, he can certainly be a 22+ point scorer on a nightly basis and do it efficiently.  Obviously that would really help the Sixers become a better team.

Over a 70 game sample, here are Holiday’s numbers when taking 14 shots or more in a game.

 6-12.5 from 2   (47.72%)

1.3-3.4 from 3  (38.91%)

2.1-2.6 FT      (80.44%)

3.8 reb

1.8 Stl+BLK

2.6 Turnovers

6.4 assists

18pts, 3.5 reb, 6.5 assists, 1.7 STL+BLK, 2.5 Turnovers

This goes all the way back to his rookie season.  The first thing that you’ll notice is that based on my assumptions, he only scores at 80% of where I think that he could be.  You will also notice that Jrue only takes 3.4 shots from 3 over this same and his free throw rate is extremely low.  As for the free throws, he is averaging more than 1.1 extra free throw per game this season compared to these numbers and that number would surely grow with a role that involves attacking the basket on a more consistent basis.  Holiday could easily end the season at 4 free throw attempts per game.  That’s 1.1 points added to his total on average.

His 3pt shooting is the change truly needs to be made.  Three point shooting is the #1 thing that Holiday does well.  He is a career 38% shooter with over 600 three-point attempts.  He % actually increases in games that he takes 3+ attempts per game as evidenced by the numbers above.  A guy like Jrue should be taking and making 3s at a rate that would have him in the top 10 each season in both categories.  While that seems like a stretch, it really isn’t.  Five attempts from long distance isn’t a stretch for a #1 scoring option or #2 option with a dominant big man in the fold.  That’s especially true for a guy who can move as well and handle the rock like Holiday.  As old as he is, Ray Allen still gets open for 3PAs by using screens and hustle, Holiday for damn well sure can do the same.

It’s no secret that NBA players have a peak that generally manifests itself around the age of 27.  (Quick Note, Regardless of what happens with Bynum, please hope the team doesn’t sign Al Jefferson who will be 29 next season and is basically Carlos Boozer). Which certainly bodes well for Holiday as he is only 22, contrary to Joshua Harris’ belief that he is “23 or 24″.  

When you’re best attribute on the offensive side of the basketball is scoring the ball efficiently, it certainly seems like that should be what you are doing on a nightly basis.  Holiday has all the necessary tools to have a good career as a point, but he will excel and make multiple All-Star teams as a guy who scores the ball as a combo guard while dishing out 5+ assists on a nightly basis.  Guys like Kobe and Wade have been what Holiday can be, albeit on a lesser scale.  More importantly, Doug Collins figured that out 20+ years ago with Michael Jordan, at what point will he figure it out with Jrue Holiday?


 
 
 

44 Responses to “HOLIDAY: ALL-STAR SG ?!?”

  1. Jon H
    27. November 2012 at 10:16

    Strong article Steve.

  2. Rob
    27. November 2012 at 10:39

    He is finally taking care of the ball while he goes off. You will say anything once you are proved wrong to try and gain back credibility. This article is dumb, holiday can score with the best of them, but have you seen how comfortable at the point he looks now. You spit out this bull like its all fact but here is one for you. This roster is not constructed for jrue to play 2 guard. Just because players have decent size doesn’t mean they should switch positions(this is your argument for Thad even though he can’t shoot or dribble). Now Evan turner is good enough to play point too, but two weeks ago it was horrible they picked up his option. It’s nice seeing you backtrack though and try and cover yourself with these articles though but here’s a little advise to you, shooting percentages don’t define positions. Put your calculater away and watch a game, without ur bias, who knows maybe even you will learn something.

  3. Adam
    27. November 2012 at 11:14

    Holiday and turner play well off each other.

    I dont think they need a pg/sg distinction. Let guards be guards.

    Problem with the starting lineup is that jrich cant defend anyone, and if turner is guarding the opposing 2 then jrich is just too outmatched by taller and more athletic 3s

  4. Chris H.
    27. November 2012 at 11:22

    Uhhhh…did someone hack Steve Toll’s account. I was halfway through the article when I went to the top to see who was the author. Then I waited for the eventual negative comments. Didn’t happen. Good article Steve. If Jrue continues to score, dish out assists and lower his turnovers (as he is starting to do) would you concede that the signing was justified? Actually, let’s keep things positive, so disregard that question. I do think that it might be interesting if Collins actually has Turner run the point and use Holiday as a combo guard. Anyway, thanks for the positive article…I needed something to take my mind off of the other team in Philly.

  5. Steve Toll
    27. November 2012 at 11:30

    Adam,

    What do you make of Jrich seemingly always taking the tough defensive matchup when the game stars like when he was on Durant and ET was on Thabo?

    Rob,
    Im not backtracking on anything and this is something I have been alluding to since I started writing for Philadunkia.

  6. Al
    27. November 2012 at 11:58

    Good article Steve,

    From all the games I’ve been to and been watching I have seen him at the 2 with ET at the one more often. I don’t know if it continue to increase over the season but it has worked well in some games. I think it has to more with Doug trusting ET at the 1 for a large amount of minutes. His court vision isn’t as good as Jrues in my opinion.

  7. Jim
    27. November 2012 at 13:04

    LOL. So Jrue is now an all-star “shooting guard”, but he’s not worthy of the extension that was given to him?

  8. steven
    27. November 2012 at 14:03

    Great article…couldnt agree more!

  9. louie
    27. November 2012 at 14:33

    im surprised steve, this was a pretty good article. just wondering though, can you name some other examples similar to MJ’s

  10. tom
    27. November 2012 at 15:15

    So does this mean that he finally agrees with everyone else that jrue is going to be much better then spencer hawes, i do believe he wrote an article saying that and if you read my comments in the same exact article i predicted this would happen eventually. this is the first article that ive ever read from him that actually made sense.

  11. freezer
    27. November 2012 at 15:21

    It makes no sense to take jrue off the ball unless they aquire a pg who pushes him off the ball. I dont know what screams hes a 2 to you hes only 3rd in the league in assists and gets better literally almost every game at limiting turnovers. Not to mention hes 22 and carrying this squad with elite numbers to boot. Now if we can get our hands on someone like chris paul if bynum walks or another elite 1, fine that makes sense. But cant you just picture Holiday at age 26 putting up some rediculous numbers from the point. Id like to eventually see him level out somewhere at 18-24ppg 4-5rpg 9-12apg 500fg 4003pt, this isnt OJ Mayo were talking about; this guy has tremendous upside at point gaurd. I will admit hes extremely capable off the ball which only makes his contract youve trashed the whole year that much more of a bargain.

  12. Jim
    27. November 2012 at 15:46

    First off, Jrue is now starting to reach his potential because he actually being allowed to run the point instead of handing it off to Iggy, Lou, and Evan all of the time and floating on the perimeter. As much as you want to lable him a shooting guard or combo guard, he’s a point guard. His assists have gone way up because he is now in charge of making plays more instead passing it off to players mentioned above and because Philly has better outside shooting than last year.

    By labeling him a shoot guard (check the title of your article), you’re killing your previous argument that he is easily replaceable. Yes, there are a ton of good point guards in the league, but how many good shooting guards are there? Not many. How many top shooting guards are there that are not on the downside of their careers? Fewer. Wade, Kobe, and Ginobili are all on the downside of their careers. The other shooting guards worthy of mention when discussing young shooting guards with all-star potential are Harden, Mayo, and Gordon (who is always hurt). If Jrue’s a shooting guard he’s second on that list behind Harden. That makes him harder to replace. It’s simple economics, if the supply is low and the demand is high, the price goes up. That means the Sixers made the right move in extending him before he hit restricted free agency.

    Also, remember when you tried to argue championship teams don’t usually have all-star point guards? That won’t fly at all if you substituted shooting guards for point guards in that statement. Jordan, Kobe, Wade, and Ginobili are have won a ton of championships over the past two decades.

  13. Jonathan
    27. November 2012 at 16:03

    I do like this article Steve, but I feel like you’re losing potential from Jrue if you move him to the two. Just because you’re best attribute is scoring you don’t have to play off the ball. I would compare Jrue’s skill set more to Derrick Rose rather than Dwayne Wade or Kobe Bryant. Both Rose and Holliday can be elite scorers, and they both have tremondous court vision. Also, I do agree that ET is better with the ball in his hands, but I would argue that he was not drafted to be the point guard, the plan was for Jrue to be the point with ET playing off of him. I think they both complement each other when they play at their best, so I think D.C. should continue to play those two the same, but replace J-Rich in the starting lineup for Dorrel who is a better defender.

  14. Rob
    27. November 2012 at 17:27

    Steve toll,
    You had the audacity to write an article stating that we paid far too much for holiday and that Lou will and spencer are both better than him. Now if we keep going by your logic, if we move him to a 2 spot he could be an all-star. You also said he didn’t have much upside, now he can be all-star? If that’s not contradicting yourself than what is? Admit your trying to save face, hopefully job, and it’s over. Until that anything you say about holiday is worth nothing and I feel bad for those who read this not knowing about the garbage you put up a couple weeks ago.

  15. clubberlangphila
    27. November 2012 at 20:26

    To paraphrase a previous post: Nothing is worse for a sports blog than a boxscore Yesman. This is the least antagonist of Toll’s posts because Holiday is on a hot streak. The only consistency in Toll’s writing is his numbers bias. ‘Numbers don’t lie’ is his cop out but he only understands basketball positions based on fantasy designation. Watch some basketball, guy. The sport is more complex than TS%, PER, USGRate, and WS portray.

    I agree with one thing Toll said though though, Holiday is a scorer first, playmaker second. Either way, taking the ball out of his hands is detrimental to his progress IMHO. Especially while this roster is in limbo with the Bynum situation.

    Jordan wasn’t ever a PG before Collins inserted him, Holiday however has always been a PG. Jordan was also in a different athletic stratosphere than Jrue or any other player in his day (like James now good for 6.5 apg or so) while Holiday doesn’t dominate his opponents with athleticism. I don’t see them as comparable in this case (if any). That said, interesting parallel and the MJ pg stint is often overlooked footnote to his and Collins respective careers.

    The way I score it, Toll has elevated Jrue Holiday from a ‘questionable move’ to an ‘AllStar SG?!?’ in less than two posts. Looking forward to his ‘Dileo should trade Holiday for superstar RAnderson and Turner for Calderon&Bargnani’ post after the Sixers’ Annual Two-week Ice Capades road trip around Christmastime.

    I hope the Sixers can come back against the Mavs in the second half tonight for amnesty’s sake.

  16. Es2300
    27. November 2012 at 23:01

    Steve,
    Great article…I think Doug knows this, I just hope he has the balls to make the switch because if he does you’ll get the best out of both players which will ultimately win us more games!

  17. Steve Toll
    28. November 2012 at 10:37

    Jon H,

    Thanks man

    Chris H,
    I (almost) never think a restricted free agent should be resigned early and I don’t love Holiday as a PG.

    Jim,
    I’ll take the bait… The East All-Star at 2 guard this year as of today is a battle between (based on production): JR Smith, Korver, Lou Williams, Jason Kidd (seriously)
    Korver is a free agent next season, and will be 32. He has never made more than 5 mil in a season, but we’ll assume that’s what he will get on the open market. Those 4 guys will potentially make ONLY $16,000,000 next year.

    Steven and Louie,
    Thanks guys, appreciate it. Louie, I’ll do some research but the MJ thing was super easy with having DC as the coach as well

  18. Steve Toll
    28. November 2012 at 11:14

    Tom,
    Don’t give up on Spencer just yet.

    Freezer,
    No buddy, You are rEdiculous. The team already has the PG you are describing, ET, who will not continue to shoot 50% from 10-15 feet and 40+% from 3 all season.
    If you take the mean of the numbers you mention for Holiday at 26, with what I am sure (in your mind) coincides with him being 1st team All-NBA defense, it would arguably be the best PG season of all time right up with 64′ Oscar Robertson, 09′ CP3 and 87′ Magic

    Jim,
    I just read your comment like 5 times and I honestly can’t figure out what your point is. While I do get your supply and demand point, it’s possible that I am the only person who has figured this out up until the release of this article and he would have been paid like a fringe top 15pg this offseason. That obviously wouldn’t happen because NBA GMs generally do a terrible job with overpaying guys, it’s a long season and (cross fingers) but injuries do happen.
    I do appreciate you informing me that very possibly, the 4 best SGs of all time have won a lot of championships the last 22 years. So let me dish you some knowledge, winning an NBA title without a Hall of Fame front court player is hasn’t happened since the 93′ Bulls.
    FYI Holiday is scoring the ball more efficiently, while his assists have gone up, his Ast:T0 ratio is barely above 2:1

    Jonathan,
    Holiday can shoot, ET can’t. ET is a more than capable passer. Holiday isn’t exactly setting the world on fire as a PG, his scoring is what’s keeping him afloat. Once Turner regresses on 3s and shots from 10-15 feet, I think your tune will change. While Jrue is nowhere near Rose, Wade, Kobe…. He is by far the best 3pt shooter.
    J-Rich is thought highly enough by DC, he seems to guard the tougher matchup at SG-SF to start the game while ET gets the weaker guy, why do you think that happens? For the record, I don’t get it either

  19. Steve Toll
    28. November 2012 at 11:39

    ClubberlangPhila,
    Thanks for mentioning that I am our fantasy bball leagues 4x defending champion. For anyone reading this, I managed to snag Love, D12, Ibaka, RAnderson with my first 4 picks this year, GOAT.

    LOL, Boxscore yesman. I do a fair amount of advance metrics which can only be done by watching games and it is an arduous task, feel free to contact me for crossbooking, you have my information.

    I understand that WS, and all that stuff isn’t the be all end all but I do know that the best guys always end up at the top, LOL variance, right???

    I’d trade RAnderson for the whole team if I could, he is Elite and has the best value contract in the NBA, with Lou Williams a close 2nd of players signed for 3+ years going forward.

    Rob,
    http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=vFgXF0a_Yw4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DvFgXF0a_Yw4

    I’m an audacious lad, what can I say? Oh yeah I can say This, you need a lesson in Reading comprehension and context.
    Holiday in a best case scenario, is the 4th best PG in the Atlantic Division, he will never be an All-Star PG. As of right now one of JR Smith, Korver, Lou Williams, Jason Kidd (seriously) should be the starting SG on the East All-Star team.

    I wasn’t contradicting myself or trying to save face, I AM THE ONLY person who has talked about this and I have been alluding to it for quite a few months. I had wrote some Holiday stuff but I have been honest in my opinions. Fortunately for any new readers, they can go back and read my previous articles and comments (which stand up next to any bball writer on the planet, IMhumbleO) to make their own judgements.

    Es2300,
    Nothing would warm more cold cold hear more than that happening

  20. Rob
    28. November 2012 at 12:41

    Kyle korver can’t do anything but spot up shoot and he’s better than holiday that’s a joke. If I need reading and writing lessons you need eye surgery because you can’t comprehend anything basketball related.

  21. Paul
    28. November 2012 at 12:58

    I agree that Holiday has skills that suit him better for the tradtional 2 guard, especially compared to ET. While ET’s skills play better as a traditional point. I dont think traditional positions are important especially when both players can match up (size wise) with any guard and Turner with 3s as well. Having both with the ability to run the offense is advantagoues. Pigeon holing the two into a traditonal position takes away an advantage the Sixers potential have. The more playmakers on the court the better, as well as anything that keeps Ivey on the bench is a positive.

  22. Jim
    28. November 2012 at 13:01

    Steve:

    My points are simple:

    Holiday is a point guard and not a shooting guard. He’s having his best year because he is actually getting to run the point this year instead of constantly deferring to Iggy, Lou, and Evan.

    If you want to label him as a shooting guard then you’re hurting your previous argument that the Sixers should not have given him an extension before he became a restricted free agent because there are fewer quality up and coming shooting guards than there are point guards. This would drive his price up when he hit restricted free agency.

    Again, if you want to label him a shooting guard, then your argument regarding the importance of point guards on championship teams is moot. However, you have to then consider the importance of shooting guards and the impact they’ve had on championship teams the last two decades. Holiday becomes more important, no?

  23. freezer
    28. November 2012 at 14:46

    What the hell are you talking about I never said you were rediculous. Anyway I’m going to laugh my ass off if jrue gets in the all star game as a point gaurd and turner makes it as 2 which if you conisder your list of allstar 2gaurds turners odds actually look pretty good. I really dont know how you come up with this shit but it is entertaining. I’d love to see you mention that list to monta ellis, jason terry, joe johnson, dwayne wade, paul george, and rip hamilton.

  24. AL3000
    29. November 2012 at 12:23

    What Collins is doing is smart. Putting Jrue Holiday at SG full time will not be beneficial to him. Granted… the league is seeing an increase in 6-4 shooting guards… but Holiday has a distinct advantage playing PG. He’s bigger and taller than most PGs. His shots come from him creating them for himself and he can just simply shoot over his defender most nights. He needs the ball in his hands to be an effective scorer. I cannot see him being anything more than an average SG. At PG, he can be much more than average due to his advantages. And… besides, there is NO NEED for him at SG.
    He and Turner are playing pretty well with and off of each other. They are getting comfortable with each other… and frankly… there is nothing broken. Makes no sense to keep seeing this ‘Jrue Holiday at SG’ nonsense.

  25. Steve Toll
    29. November 2012 at 14:11

    Rob,
    I dont know where I said that Korver > Holiday, which leads me to this point. Poor vision can be corrected, they don’t have surgery to make you smarter

    Paul,
    Turner can’t shoot and Holiday can, I want the ball in ETs hands when he is on the court. ET is not a very good defender, him playing against 3s just doesn’t work.

    Jim,
    Offensively, he is not having his best year. If nobody knows he is a SG, why would they pay him like one? Being a top 5 shooting guard and fringe top 100 player are not mutually exclusive. Your last point is very wrong, since Holiday or anyone else on the 76ers will not be making anything resembling a championship type run over the next few years.

    Freezer,
    Guess you missed the joke, there is no E in ridiculous.
    Monta Ellis and Rip haven’t been good since 08, Joe Johnson is having a horrible year shooting, Wade isn’t Wade right now, Paul George has been average. Holiday is drawing dead to make an All-Star team as a PG, get over it. Evan Turner can’t shoot the ball ergo he will not be an All-Star SG. Turner will not continue to shoot 50% from 10-15 feet or 40+% from 3. Like I said, you’re rEdiculous

  26. Jonathan
    29. November 2012 at 16:45

    I think Jrue’s turnover problems and awareness will be improved over time as he gains more experience and the game begins to slow down for him.

  27. Rob
    29. November 2012 at 17:00

    Calling the people who view this blog “not smart” is “not smart” but I’m sure you have advanced stats for that. I hope you get over your bias of jrue and Evan who get better and better, but I won’t be around to read it.

  28. Jim
    30. November 2012 at 00:33

    Steve: Offensively, he is having his best year. Check his stats again. He’s averaging more assists and points than he ever has in the NBA.

    “If no one knows he’s a SG why would they pay him like one?” The only questions are if Holiday would have received a higher paying contract next summer if the Sixers had passed on him extending this fall and if he’s worth what he received. The Sixers may not win a championship with Holiday as their point guard, but the Sixers could not get a better player in free agency with the money they gave Holiday. Given that there a ton of teams with max space next year, some of which need a point guard, Holiday would definitely be offered more than he was extended for. Congratulations, you just said a player was not worth a reasonable extension and then turned around a couple of weeks letter speculating about his all-star potential. Way to let a potential all-star go for a few million dollars.

  29. Steve Toll
    30. November 2012 at 13:58

    Jim,

    Being an All-Star and being a fringe top 100 player are not mutually exclusive. Philadelphia is also the 5th/6th most populated city in the entire country. All-Star starters are voted in by the fans.

    You just insinuated that Holiday would potentially get a Max offer in free agency, and unless I am mistaken you also said “the Sixers could not get a better player in free agency with the money they gave Holiday”

    They let a better player go for HALF the money this offseason, Sweet Lou!!!!!

    http://www.thenbageek.com/players/compare?utf8=%E2%9C%93&player_ids%5B%5D=252&player_ids%5B%5D=497

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=holidjr01&y1=2013&p2=willilo02&y2=2013

    You gonna come at the King, you best not miss – Omar

  30. Steve Toll
    30. November 2012 at 14:21

    Jonathan,
    Thats likely to happen to some degree, time will tell

    Rob,
    Haaaa, nice reading comprehension. I make a factual statement that vision can be enhanced with surgery but there is no surgery to increase intelligence and you

  31. Fred
    1. December 2012 at 17:33

    Why is Steve still writing for this site? Just looking at his comments on this shows a lack of composure when conversing with people who disagree with his opinion.

    He also shows a lack of self-awareness because the 2 articles before this were about 1) Turner not being worth his contract and 2) Holiday not being worth his contract. Now that they’ve begun/continued to improve and live up to their contracts, instead of going over his previous arguments with the same statistical scrutiny about contracts and win shares or whatever, he presents an topically tangential article about them being miscast in their roles. It annoys me that Philadunkia allowed him to write a piece before a piece that went back over his previous arguments. It also annoys me that Philadunkia allowed him to write again at all given his typical comments.

  32. LCK
    1. December 2012 at 17:45

    Steve,

    I gave an example of when WS48 doesnt work at all in the comment sect. of rapid reacts game 13. maybe you didn’t respond cause you’re scared.

  33. Jim
    2. December 2012 at 14:32

    Steve: You are getting smoked in this debate and you don’t even realize it. I insinuated that Holiday would get a larger contract over the summer if the Sixers had not extended him. I didn’t insinuate he would get the max. Go ahead and check the contracts of two other point guards from Jrue’s draft class, Curry and Lawson. Did they get more lucrative extensions then Jrue? Yes. Did they receive the max? Nope. Yeah, you lost that one.

    Jrue’s playing at an all-star level. You’re trying to argue that the reason that Jrue would be voted to the all-star game is because of the size of the Philadelphia’s population. If it were just based on size, then why hasn’t Jrue been an all-star? Because he hasn’t deserved it – yet. The way he’s playing this year, he deserves it. He’s proved he is more than worthy of the extension he received.

    You keep making this about Lou vs. Jrue. Jrue’s extension should not have had anything to do with the management not resigning Jrue. Jrue’s a starting point guard and Lou a great sixth man. They can compliment each othe really well. Management should have resigned him. By the way, Lou is under contact next year so he would not be available for the Sixers to sign in the summer. And you still haven’t identified a player the Sixers could realistically sign using the money they gave Holiday.

  34. Steve Toll
    3. December 2012 at 11:33

    Fred,

    What can I say, Holiday’s robust. 099 WS48 speaks for itself on a team with the 7th most wins in the NBA. The fact is, I am right about all this. Let me know how you rationalize Holiday generally getting outplayed this year by his opposition?

    Jim,
    I said you “insinuated he would potentially get a max contract”. In your mind he is better than Lawson-Curry and that means Jrue would be getting close to max money. Holiday is not an All-Star, get over it. You keep saying he is worth his extension when the team let a superior player go for 1/2 the money this offseason. The team could get BOTH Dwight Howard and Chris Paul for the money they used to sign Holiday (and Turner). Better luck next time

  35. michael
    3. December 2012 at 22:37

    This is the same guy who said holidays contract was a mistake he clearly hasn’t a clue what he is talking about. Holiday is a PG not a SG. People need to get real when it comes to there ideals of what a PG is not everyone is John Stocken or Jason Kidd and History has Prove you dont need a mark jackson john stockon or jason kidd or steve nash to win in the NBA. why? becuase these players havent won themselfs with the sole acception of Magic and Rondo these pass frist PGs are not winners and even rondo was no where close to the reason why the celtics won Holiday is an allways will be a PG the same way westbrook rose and billups are PGs this is just steve toll finding yet another way to take a slide at Jrue

  36. michael
    3. December 2012 at 22:40

    Also Holiday Has been better than Lawson this season and has been healthy more often than Curry Jrue is 3rd in assits and top 20 in scoreing he is making a very powerfull case at being an allstar this season and lets be real Lou is not better than Holiday… you must be joking you have to be no one can be that stupid

  37. michael
    3. December 2012 at 22:42

    Howard and CP3 are not leaving LA for philly Steve toll.. get real. Holiday is not overpaid and you are wrong just accept it

  38. michael
    3. December 2012 at 22:50

    Steve toll one other thing you fail to understand is holiday has improved becuase he has the ball in his hands more often now and ISNT playing off the ball as much as he did with Iggy and lou here that has BEEN the difference in his play. while it is true Evan Turner would fit better with the ball in his hands than he has playing offball thats more of a problem with Turner than it is Holiday Turner needs to be moved for an off ball guard becuase Jrue holiday is our PG

  39. Steve Toll
    4. December 2012 at 02:44

    Michael
    I’ve consistently said that PG is the least important postition in the NBA, so your trying to make a point about something I’ve been saying forever. You start talking about winners and championships in a way that can only be described as the opposite of discernible

    Holiday is at best, the 4th best point guard in the division. Over the course of a game, I’ll easily and without hesitation take Felton+Kidd+Pablo over 48 minutes of any combo of 76ers at PG. That isn’t even debatable at this point.

    Jrue has been better than Lawson and Lou has been better than Holiday, get over it.

    My comment about CP3 and D12 was totally hypothetical and said in jest, but still factual under that hypothetical scenario. Sick reading comprehension, related to Rob by chance?

    The team already has 2 off the ball guards in Jason Richardson (this year+2 more) and Nick Young, but humor me and tell me whom you have in mind going forward? Please don’t say OJ Mayo, he isn’t coming here.

  40. Jim
    4. December 2012 at 12:41

    Steve: Here are your words copied and pasted from this article: “Through some research, I have discovered as my eye test has hypothesized: Jrue is an All-Star combo guard.”

    Now here are your words from the comment section: “Holiday is not an All-Star, get over it.”

    Do you notice a contradiction there?

    Yes, I believe that Jrue is a worth more than Lawson and Curry. He’s better on the defensive end and he’s not nearly as injury prone as Curry.

    You keep missing the point about Lou. I agree with you that the Sixers should have resigned him instead of signing Nick Young and Kwame Brown. That has nothing to do with Jrue’s extension. You sure have a lot of love a player that’s allergic to defense. If Iggy called him out on that.

    What exactly makes you think that Chris Paul and Dwight Howard would both sign with Philly if they had the cap space?

    It’s incredible how much you contradict yourself and how stubborn you are. Just admit you were wrong and move on.

  41. Steve Toll
    5. December 2012 at 10:39

    Jim,

    Holiday is not an All-Star. If you look at his numbers over that sample size I wrote about, he performed at an All-Star type of level. Now take into consideration how weak the SG position is in the NBA. Then account for Holiday being a NEGATIVE defensive presence and you can see how a player from the 5th/6th biggest city in America could both be an All-Star and not be an All-Star at the same time.

    Holiday, Lawson, Curry have nothing to do with each other as Philadelphia couldn’t sign those 2 players, so it’s a moot point. Jrue’s extension is directly correlated to Lou and will be for the next few years. A superior player was allowed to leave for 1/2 the money.

    Iggy called out Lou on defense, cool story bro

    CP3 and D12 to Philly can be described in 1 one word, hyperbole. Fact of the matter is, it is still possible.

    It’s easy to be viewed as stubborn in the eyes of someone on the wrong side of a very simple argument. Think that I contradict myself with all the gusto that you can muster, fact of the matter is that’s just not true. At the end of the day, I am on point and all I can do lead you to water…

  42. Lck
    5. December 2012 at 14:09

    Yep, Steve’s ignoring me cause he doesn’t have an answer

  43. Jim
    6. December 2012 at 01:20

    Steve: You’ve already lost this argument, but continue to come at me, bro.

    Like I said, your argument about Holiday making the all-star team because he plays in the 5th/6th biggest city in America is a terrible one. If it only had to do with the size of the market then why didn’t he make the all-star game the last few years? Because he wasn’t worthy. This year he is. He’s being lauded for his all-star play by anyone who has any clue about basketball and watched Philly play this year.

    Lawson and Curry are both point guards from Jrue’s draft class so of course I’m going to compare Jrue’s extension to theirs. It’s gives you an idea of what the market is for young point guards who have all-star potential, but have never made the all-star team. I’ll take Jrue over both of those players. He has the best contract too.

    Glad you liked the story about Iggy calling out Lou on his defense. And that’s playing a lot of minutes against the second unit.

    You don’t think Mayo is coming here, but you like the chances of both CP3 and Howard joining forces here? Dream on.

    You’ve been proven wrong on many accounts, but you continue to dig your hole deeper with each new argument you try to make. You’ve probably forgot that the argument was about whether or not the Sixers should have extended Jrue. Given the amount of teams with max space next year, the free agent crop, Jrue’s play this year, his age, and his untapped potential, he would without a doubt received more next summer if he hadn’t been extended. You still haven’t identified players the Sixers should have given the money Jrue was extended for. Fail.

  44. Steve Toll
    7. December 2012 at 04:44

    LCK,

    Neil Johnston’s prime 6 years was 22pts, 13 rebounds, 3 Assists

    Over that 6 year span, HE WAS THE BEST PLAYER IN THE NBA.

    Kobe hasn’t been the best player in the NBA for 1 minute his entire career.

    If you want to argue that Kobe > Neil Johnston, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    Jim,
    I’ll address you and everyone about Holiday when I write my 1/4 season review but here is a free preview: Jrue has been matched up with 21 guys this season, a few guys like Felton+Calderon 2x. Of these 21 match ups, he has either been at a stalemate or been outplayed by 14 guys…..

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