PHILADUNKIA 4on4

Posted by: Philadunkia
01/30/13 9:28 am EST

It’s time for another edition of Philadunkia 4on4…

As a reminder, this Philadunkia question and answer series is “loosely based” on ESPN.com’s highly successful, NBA related series of posts titled “5on5″.  Our version of this genre of posts will ask 4 Philadunkia scribes to answer 4 topical, hot button questions about our Philadelphia 76ers.

Now you’re probably asking, “Why not simply stick with the “5on5″ format that ESPN.com uses?” 

Well as any great hoops coach will tell you — playing 4on4 is the best way to truly learn the game of basketball.

After the jump four key questions that are currently facing our 76ers and some answers from four Philadunkia scribes.  Included in this week’s edition are some opinions on want to do with Wright and Lavoy as well as Bynum’s “progress”.

   

1)  True or False.  Bynum will play in 20+ regular season games for the 76ers this season?

Jeff McMenamin:  True.  I’ve watched Bynum’s workouts and drills.  Although this obviously isn’t the same as playing in a game, he looks to be getting his lateral quickness back and even dunked a few times in his drills yesterday for the first time.  I think if all goes to plan in his rehab, he’ll return after the All-Star break and play in 30+ games this season easy.  I just wish he came back in time to guard Marc Gasol Monday night…

Steve Toll:  True.  Bynum will play 31 games, which is every game after the All-Star Break.  The team will win 16, 17 or 18 of those games which is about 55% like I have continuously said they would and everyone will say, “Wait til next year, this team will win 60 games, just you wait and see Steve Troll.  They won 55% of the games with Bynum in 30 games and next year they will win 75%”

C. Smith:  False.  But I hope it comes true.  The Sixers have 31 games remaining after the ASG.  I’ll start by predicting that for some unforeseen Bynum does not make his debut on Feb. 20th at Minnesota.  In addition to that item, the Sixers have 6 sets of back-to-back games left in those 31 post-ASG contests.  Included in those sets is a four games in 5 nights stretch during early March.  Bynum, his knees and fitness level will not be able to withstand that schedule, so he is going to miss some games.  Probably more then 10.         

Jake Fischer:  True.  I’m expecting Andrew Bynum to get off his anti-gravity treadmill and make his Philadelphia 76ers debut on February 23 in the Wells Fargo Center.  He’ll be around for 29 games.  It’s not unrealistic to expect Bynum will miss a few games for rest in that span, but even with that in mind, it’s not completely irrational to expect the big man to play at least 20 games.      

2)  Stay or Go.  Dorrel Wright is in the Do(u)g-house right now.  Do you move him?  Or do you keep him and give him a bigger role with the Sixers?

Jeff McMenamin:  Stay.  I really don’t know what the issue is between Wright and Collins this season.  I don’t get how he got no tick against Memphis the other night, when he dropped 28 on them in his best game of the season just last month.  With his current value, I don’t believe the Sixers could get much for him in a trade at this point.  He’s still one of the best shooters on the Sixers when he’s on the court and when Bynum returns he could play a valuable role (that is if Collins actually gives him minutes). It’s frustrating that the Sixers haven’t been able to find a reliable three-point shooter since Kyle Korver.

Steve Toll:  Stay.  The team owns Dorell’s Bird Rights.  Unless he is traded for someone on a multi-year deal, he should not be traded.  Reason being, the team won’t have any cap room to replace him with a free agent but because of those same Bird Rights the 76ers can resign Dorell even if it sends the team over the salary cap.

C. Smith:  Stay.  In addition to the fact that the Sixers own his “Bird Rights”, he’s a better overall player then Swaggy or the injury prone J-Rich.  I’m not sure what he did to get into the Do(u)g-house, but when he didn’t play against Memphis – a team he hung 28 on earlier this year – I realized he was in deep trouble.  Whatever the problem is, I hope DC gets over it and Wright starts seeing some more burn at the 2/3 because we could use outside shooting, defense and rebounding on the court.

Jake Fischer:  I wish the answer was Stay.  Dorrel Wright could potentially be the most dynamic player off the Sixers bench.  He’s got great size, speed and willingness to guard on the perimeter and is also a knock-down shooter to compliment a healthy Bynum.  Remember, he led the league in 3PT field goals made in 2010-2011.  His contract ends following this season, he would be a valuable piece to resign and play but he could be worth more in a trade. 

3)  True or False.  The “new” starting lineup is actually a viable option for a first-five until Bynum returns?

Jeff McMenamin:  True. The Sixers need offense to open games. They’ve come out very strong on the offensive end in their last two outings with Nick Young and Spencer Hawes in the first-five. If it ain’t broke, don’t try to fix it as they say. What needs to be addressed is the best way to hold a lead once it’s established. The Spurs and Grizzlies games were unfriendly reminders of the suffering I had to endure last season. 

Steve Toll:  False.  Any lineup with SwaggyP is not a viable lineup, plain and simple. 

C. Smith:  False.  It’s a nice little move by DC to spark this team during a very winnable stretch of home games, but with 7 more contests on the schedule until Bynum’s predicted return, this lineup will get exposed.  Swaggy is a one-dimensional player and when he’s not scoring in bunches, he’s worthless.  And don’t even get me started on Hawes.  These two have long standing NBA track records that show they are not starting caliber players.  This “new” starting five will crack on DC very soon.   

Jake Fischer:  True.  When a supposedly playoff-caliber team is 17-25, there’s nothing to do but try to mix things up and infuse some new energy into the starting lineup.  Being someone who’s very cynical of Doug Collins’ coaching, I’m really impressed with the changes he made.  While it might not last for a whole season, Nick Young’s energy and Thad’s play on the block with Spencer Hawes at the high post is viable compliment to Jrue Holiday and Evan Turner’s penetration for a few weeks. 

4)   Stay or Go.  Lavoy Allen has become a practice cone and looks disinterested at times.  Do you trade him or keep him?

Jeff McMenamin:  Go.  I love my Temple Owls and as surprised and happy I was with Lavoy’s 2011-12 campaign, he’s regressed back to the player that frequently tortured me as a Temple basketball fan, “Mr. Softee”. For the Owls, Lavoy would be good for 10 boards a game with solid defense, but on offense he was always soft when it came to taking the ball up strong to the hoop.  For the Sixers this season, not only has he completely abandoned the idea of using his body to score on offense, he’s been getting completely manhandled on both the boards and on the defensive end.  At times I’ve even felt like Kwame Brown has shown me more this season than Lavoy.  It’s ashame and I wish him the best, as long as the best doesn’t come with the Sixers logo across his chest. 

Steve Toll:  Go.  Trading Lavoy is actually ok because it will free up the teams Mid-Level Exception for next season which was partially used to retain him this off-season.  A Mid Level exception is a 4-year deal with a Max starting salary of $5,000,000 that can be used on one player or broken up ($5 million spread around) and used on multiple players on deals up to 4 years.  Like Bird Rights, a team can use the Mid Level Exception to go over the salary cap.

C. Smith:  Go.  But I say that with hesitancy and in a very disappointing manner.  We literally only need this local kid to score 6-8 points and grab 10 boards a night.  If he could do that consistently, he would start every night and could own this town.  Lavoy has shown flashes of being able to do just that (12 near double-doubles this year) and I don’t understand why he can’t sustain it.  Still, I am sure Fran Dunphy asked himself the same question many, many times.  So it’s probably time to move on.   

Jake Fischer:  Why trade an excellent contract?  When in the right mental mindset and when playing with confidence, Lavoy Allen is capable of putting up 10 points and 6 rebounds in 28 minutes per game.  That type of production at just $3 million is pretty valuable if the coaching staff uses him correctly.  He has proved he can  be a valuable big off the bench in the playoffs last season vs. Boston. 

 


 
 
 

36 Responses to “PHILADUNKIA 4on4”

  1. Ray
    30. January 2013 at 10:00

    I don’t get the hate on Swaggy, he’s the only player besides Thad who brings energy to this team, which says way more than Wrights horrible play. And he hasn’t been a liability defensively at all, assuming you guys actually watch the games. He’s been getting blocks and deflections

  2. Rob Y
    30. January 2013 at 10:10

    1) I bet less than 25 games for Bynum. Sweet a 7 footer can dunk! What great news! Why bother rushing him if he’s more likely to re-injure himself, which could be career ending. Doesn’t make sense to me unless you reaaaallly want to get that 8 seed and get swept by the Heat 1st round, miss out on a lotto, etc.

    On the bi-polar side of me, if Bynum can miraculously come back from surgery 100%, I think it’s not out of the realm of possibility that we beat the Heat first round if all cylinders are clicking if we can sneak into the 8 spot. Bynum (100% and shaken off the rust) could realistically put up 25 and 13 a game vs. Bosh/Joel Anthony (if they decide to play Joel this year in the playoffs). Hopefully he’s good enough of a passer to dish it to DWright or SwaggyP who get hot at the right time once LeBron doubles. Let’s see how Jrue can get it inside to Bynum/DC gameplans for him considering we haven’t run an offense like that…ever.

    2) Keep Dorrell Wright, send off SwaggyP/JRich. Trade ET if possible if teams think he’s good.

    3) The 4 viable options are 1) what we have now, 2) subbing in Wright for Swaggy, 3) subbing in JRich for Swaggy, or 4) subbing in Lavoy at PF to have a Jrue/ET/Thad/Lavoy/Hawes starting 5 which seems to be the obvious choice. Unfortunately, DC will refuse to bench ET. A Jrue/DWright (I kind of actually prefer JRich here to have one other decent baller handler)/Thad/Lavoy/Hawes starting 5 is what we should have been running all year and have a fresh ET or get a quick burst out of Ivey to play PG when Jrue needs his 10-12 minutes of rest/game.

    4) Lavoy has GOT to go. With the MLE, its a no brainer. I really just have no idea how a borderline D-Leaguer can’t hustle his butt off when his career depends on it. Can’t blame the guy if he’s happy with living off $4mn for the rest of his life and coaching but to he his own. Hustling and maybe being a little it smarter is all he really needs to average 9 and 6.5 a night.

    Jeff – are you kidding about Lavoy putting up 10 boards a game? That’s a joke right?

  3. the super villain
    30. January 2013 at 10:23

    5) True or False. Is there any feasible away of rid of Jason Richardson’s contract?

  4. Larry Smith
    30. January 2013 at 11:39

    STEVE TOLL u can campaign for DW all u want, DOUG aint listening.

  5. Jeff McMenamin
    30. January 2013 at 12:19

    Rob Y,

    Here’s Lavoy’s stats at Temple. Check his last three seasons. If you get the average of the three it comes out to be 9.4. So yes, like I said he got about 10 boards a game at Temple.

    http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/temple/lavoy-allen

  6. Rob Y
    30. January 2013 at 12:33

    Sorry Jeff,

    I misread, thought you meant he could get 10 at NBA level. I’m not really sure why you make the case that averaging 10 boards a game at the college level has much translation to the NBA especially with an undersized PF/C but I’m interested in any other cases why you were happy with his 2011-2012 campaign besides a few playoff games where the ball could have simply bounced his way and he knocked down a high % of shots in a small sample size.

  7. Jeff McMenamin
    30. January 2013 at 12:51

    Roy Y,

    I was explaining how his defensive and rebounding intensity had at least been there last season for the Sixers, a lot like it had been at Temple. I wasn’t at all suggesting he could keep those rebounding numbers up on the NBA level. Now for the most part he’s completely lost it. He had a huge game defensively last season against D12 and the Magic, doesn’t exactly show in the stat-sheet but that’s why I watch the games. With extended minutes against KG/Taj Gibson in the playoffs he proved to be a great compliment to Brand on D. I think this is why ultimately the Sixers kept him over Vuc in the Bynum trade (horrible move), but I don’t think anyone could’ve predicted Vucevic’s season this year. Lavoy actually has a pretty smooth jumper for a big man, but that isn’t helpful to the team until Bynum returns.

  8. ms. haygood
    30. January 2013 at 12:56

    1. I hope Bynum does not play 20 or more games, this just gives the Organization an excuse to bring the WHOLE team, including the coaching staff, back next year…just to see what they can do with a healthy team. BLAH!!!!!!!!!!

    2. If Doug will be your coach next year…trade him. I dont see Dorell resigning with the 6ers next year even if we can offer him more money. why would he want to play for this coach?
    If Doug is gone, keep him.

    3. The starting line-up at this point doesn’t matter. This team only seems to win when the other team has an off night or is disinterested like the Knicks were for their last win…

    4. If you can trade Lavoy for a more athletic big on a rookie or similar contract…you gotta do it. Lavoy at this point seems more interested in being a twitter star and consoling Stacy Dash, than he is about being a useful big in this league.
    Besides, how many out of shape, jump-shooting, slow-footed bigs, does a team need?

  9. Larry Smith
    30. January 2013 at 13:06

    Steve Toll i no ur tom mandel a nick young hater, u followed him from washington, clippers, and here ur in philly. IDN what he did to u but it must’ve been awful. Peace Out.

  10. Rick
    30. January 2013 at 13:08

    Steve,

    So when I said the team should go 25-16(24-14 now) for the rest of the season, I was “insane” or what ever word you used. But, now you have them winning at least 16 games with bynum and they should win 5 of these next 7 games, which would put them at 21-17 at the least, 23-15 at the most, in your opinion. So like I asked before which you haven’t answered yet. What do you think the record will be in these next 38 games?

    I don’t understand why everyone is so high on Dorell Wright. He hasn’t shown me anything this year. I haven’t watched him before this season so I do not know his potential, but from what I have seen I don’t have a problem with him being in the “Doug House” until he gets in the gym and starts getting his jumper back to pure/consistent. I do have to admit when I go to the games and watch them warm up he is one of the only ones out there most of the time, but his jumper just isn’t translating to the game. Way to many missed wide open looks and he isn’t locking anybody up on the other end. You guys forget that he had his chance and he didn’t produce. So now when he’s on the bench everybody is on doug’s case.

    I like this starting line-up. Nick Young can create his own shot. Dorell Wright is a spot up shooter. Once Bynum comes back then I think Dorell will have a bigger role on this roster. Do you guys think Spencer goes back to the bench when Bynum comes back, or is he moved to the four and Thad starts to come off the bench? I believe Spencer will start to come off the bench again.

  11. Steve Toll
    30. January 2013 at 13:22

    The Super Villian,

    We could trade Jrue+J-Rich for Lebron

  12. Sloetry
    30. January 2013 at 13:29

    I don’t get to see the post game interviews…. has anyone in the media actually asked Collins why DW didn’t play after his last outing against them?

  13. Rob Y
    30. January 2013 at 13:30

    I don’t think anyone could’ve predicted Nik’s year this year but it’s not completely unbelievable. Overall, and I’m living in the past but I still have no clue why we decided to take Lavoy over Vuc. Nik was the 16th pick in a solid draft class (surrounded by Shumpert and Kawhi Leonard). Lavoy was the 50th. Details below:

    Nik averaged 13-11 on 45% shooting and 1.5 blks per 36 min last year. There is no reason to believe Lavoy had a better jump shot than Vuc who looked very strong early in the season and got discouraged when DC for some reason put him in the Do(u)g-house. Vuc shot 35% from 3 in college and averaged 17-10 on USC vs. much tougher competition, clearly an indication he has solid touch.

    Most importantly, he was improving dramatically per season, average 7 more ppg his Junior season than his Sophomore year. Vuc is one year younger than Lavoy and shot 76% from FT in college. He also had some semi-professional experience. Vuc outsizes Lavoy (6’10” 240lbs vs. 6’9″ 225 lbs. Lavoy averaged 10-10 per 36 min last season with a 47%FG. Red flags come up on Lavoy based on his collegiate stats–> If you take the time to look and them you can clearly see that they were flat, if not deproving slightly senior year in FG%.

  14. Steve Toll
    30. January 2013 at 13:52

    Rick,

    I honestly thought you were talking without Bymum back. Sorry

    Dorell hasn’t been bad this year, he’s been ~average. It’s hilarious to me how people can’t see that

    Nick Young sucks

    Sloetry,

    The media room is filled with mouth breathers, led by D. Lynam

    RobY,

    Nik was traded for the self professed best Center in the NBA. It was a terrible deal then, AS I PLAINLY stated and it looks worse now.

    The 76ers came out 4th in that trade, Tony Dileo should win GM of the Year

  15. Rob Y
    30. January 2013 at 14:16

    Think there was any chance we could’ve thrown in Lavoy instead of Vuc + a couple 2nd rounders…doesn’t look AS bad then.

  16. ms. haygood
    30. January 2013 at 14:41

    @SLOETRY DC’s stated reason for not playing DW…he wants more defensive minded guys coming off his bench, hence you have Ivey who never played in OKC getting minutes and Damien Wilkins who i thought was out of league getting those mins.

  17. Steve Toll
    30. January 2013 at 14:53

    RobY,

    The decision makers were dead set on both getting ruining the teams championship equity and when the opportunity arose, getting Bynum at any cost.

    That was this offseason in a nutshell

  18. Jeff McMenamin
    30. January 2013 at 17:44

    Hey Steve,

    Riddle me this…If Evan Turner is as bad as you constantly say he is…And Andre Iguodala should be in the HOF like you’ve said…Than why are their numbers this season nearly identical, while Turner’s getting paid $5.3 million and Iguodala’s getting paid $14.7 million?! You sir have been burned.
    http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&p1=iguodan01&y1=2013&p2=turneev01&y2=2013

    Also, based on this…Explain to me again how the Sixers came a distant fourth in the trade??????? They shed the salary of a bum in Iguodala for a top-15 player in the league when healthy in Bynum.

    And you never answered my questions from the last post…

    Can you please explain these??? I want to hear this “logic” that you claim to have behind these statistical analysis’ I’ve done.

    “Carmelo Anthony>Tyson Chandler…but only better in PER statistically.

    Rajon Rondo>Jared Sullinger…but only better in PER and DWS statistically.

    JaVale and Gallinari>Koufos…but only better in PER statistically….Oh and Iguodala’s far worse than all of them in every category.

    Aldridge>Hickson and Batum…but only better than Batum in PER and DRTG…He’s lower than Hickson in everything.

    Kevin Love>Pekovic, Kirilenko, Ridnour…but only better than Ridnour in PER and DRTG…only better than AK47 and Pek in DRTG.”

  19. Steve Toll
    30. January 2013 at 18:01

    Jeff,

    I don’t need to qualify myself to you especially considering how little you know about basketball.

    Iguodala is still a good bit better than ET on offense and MASSIVELY better on defense. That’s with ET shooting an unsustainable rate from 3 and Iggy having his worst offensive year. I’m not going to get into cap stuff and CBA because you have no understanding of it even if I explained it.

    As for the player comparison stuff, none qualified under my specifications. Do you know what RAPM is because that’s part of it and you didn’t include it?

    I’ll just have to survive being the man, while you spend time and energy trying to elevate yourself to my level which we all know isn’t possible.

    I do work, you “eye test” and can’t even do that right.

  20. Rob Y
    30. January 2013 at 18:09

    Jeff,

    It’s pretty much impossible to argue ET > Iggy although Iggy is not a HOF in a million years if Steve really said that. The numbers you chose are off this year because Iggy has been struggling offensively/is getting used to a new team/has better players around him. People (not I) thought ET could take over Iggy’s role but he simply isn’t big or strong enough. It is unfortunate Philly fans didn’t appreciate Iggy as much as they should have. Basically, he isn’t a #1 option.

    Iggy is generally a 18-19 PER type player and is one of the 5 best defenders in the league. Sure, it was an anomally how well he shot from 3pt range last year, but he scores at a solid clip for a SF in his career and gets to the line almost 2x as much as ET does in his career. I admit the difference between the two will merge as ET matures, but ET doesn’t possess 1/100 the athleticism or intelligence Iggy has (Iggy is easily in the top 10 most athletic players in the league, arguably 5).

    I am beginning to think that readers simply dislike Steve Toll because he makes occasional outlandish claims/weird trade scenarios, is often arrogant (maybe intentionally), and is a cynic (underrates Jrue/Sixers as a whole with Bynum).

    That said, Jeff, I fear you may know less about basketball than Steve if you truly believe ET is close to the level of a player such as Iggy who is by no means a bum.

  21. Jon in LA
    30. January 2013 at 19:43

    Rob Y,

    I don’t think Jeff’s saying that ET is as good as Iggy, but they are a lot closer than Steve Toll saying that ET sucks and Iggy is a HOF. Also when you look at the salaries, as Toll often does, the argument for an additional 9 million a year is kind of tough when they have similar numbers and you factor in that it’s really ET’s first year as the starter. Keep ET and spend that 9 million on someone else.

  22. Steve Toll
    30. January 2013 at 20:22

    Jon in LA,

    The 76ers have no cap room once Bynum is resigned whether the team had ET or Iggy. So there is no money to spend on “someone else”

    Rob Y,

    Read this, it makes a clear case for Iggy as a guy who is a near lock for the HOF; http://philadunkia.com/?p=7051

    I agree about your points about people disliking me.

    I have a view that is different and as a whole, have been far superior in my 76er analysis than anyone cares to admit.

    I’ve got the 76ers as a team that wins ~55% of its games with Bynum. Jrue is quickly ascending the ranks as most overrated athlete in Philadelphia history

    ET is having a career year and he still sucks. Jeff will say, “ET is having a career year and is one of the most dynamic players in the NBA!!!! Look at how many rebounds he gets”

  23. Jeff McMenamin
    30. January 2013 at 20:28

    Rob Y,

    I don’t think ET is close to the level of Iguodala, I was simply doing a comparison. He’s definitely not a bum haha, that was sarcasm. I do think that Bynum when healthy though is 5x more valuable than Iguodala. If Bynum plays the next 8 seasons healthy in the NBA, he probably will be in the HOF.

    I was also pointing out though that despite his critics, Turner’s played close to the level of Iguodala this season while being paid $9 million less.

    Iguodala is a far superior defender then Turner, even if this season hasn’t shown it in his stats. I’d say their offensive games are similar, but Iguodala’s definitely more athletic.

    When you say this though…
    “The numbers you chose are off this year because Iggy has been struggling offensively/is getting used to a new team/has better players around him.”

    Can’t a lot of that be said about Turner too? He’s one of 5 returning Sixers from last season (Thad, Jrue, Lavoy, Spencer). This is his first season as a full-time starter and he’s playing a position that he’s undersized to play. People are unfairly tough on Turner because he was a #2 pick. Get over that he’s never going to be an NBA All-Star, and that the Sixers were probably better off trading down in the draft for more picks and getting a guy like DMC/Monroe.

    Readers don’t like Steve because he acts like a know-it-all. When he’s blatantly wrong, he won’t acknowledge it and continue to defend himself like he’s still right.

    Steve,

    Haaaaaa, or you can’t explain yourself so you’re just avoiding the embarrassment.

    This season, Andre Iguodala who costs $9 million more in salary is producing at the same rate as his understudy. If Iguodala is a MASSIVELY better defender than Turner this season, than why do they have the same DRTG?

    As you once said Steve, “stats are the only thing that matter in life.” So how do you justify Iguodala being a better defender based on that stat?

    You use excuses way too much when trying to defend your points, where you completely disregard it in other situations. This is Turner’s first season starting in the NBA as an undersized SF. Obviously he’s not going to come out of the gate as the second-coming of Scottie Pippen, it’s going to take another couple years to really develop (especially if he’s sticking with the position).

    LOL to the cap and CBA statement.

    As you should know already Steve, the stat RAPM is developed by regressing what a player is doing in their current season towards the mean average of what they have done in previous seasons. This stat gives you an idea of how good a player has been throughout their career, it isn’t the best stat to measure how a player is performing in their current season. That stat would be….drum roll….WS. So…Answer me again…

    I want to hear this “logic” that you claim to have behind these statistical analysis’ I’ve done.

    “Carmelo Anthony>Tyson Chandler…but only better in PER statistically.

    Rajon Rondo>Jared Sullinger…but only better in PER and DWS statistically.

    JaVale and Gallinari>Koufos…but only better in PER statistically….Oh and Iguodala’s far worse than all of them in every category.

    Aldridge>Hickson and Batum…but only better than Batum in PER and DRTG…He’s lower than Hickson in everything.

    Kevin Love>Pekovic, Kirilenko, Ridnour…but only better than Ridnour in PER and DRTG…only better than AK47 and Pek in DRTG.”

    As for this…

    “I’ll just have to survive being the man, while you spend time and energy trying to elevate yourself to my level which we all know isn’t possible.

    I do work, you “eye test” and can’t even do that right.”

    You think…
    Thad>Jrue
    Mutombo>Iverson
    Iggy=HOF

    Keep on truckin…

  24. Steve Toll
    30. January 2013 at 20:56

    Jeff,

    You are a total moron in regards to basketball. It’s sad that you are employed as a basketball writer. I’m not going to take it easy on you anymore.

    In what world is defensive rating a competent stat that anyone can refer to when attempting to quantify aa players defensive capabilities? You are implying that it is one of note. Fact, it is extremely minisclue.

    ET is close to his prime, he has a lot less room to grow than you can comprehend.

    RAPM is not what you think it is, neither is WS

    I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make with these player things but you are failing,

    Thad is superior to Jrue in all these except for PER.

    WS48, WP48, Offensive and Defensive Rating, Roland Rating, RAPM (which you clearly don’t understand), On-Off numbers

    The only 2 that fit that criteria is Chandler+Melo and Chandler is clearly better.

    You are terrible at basketball analysis, it’s sad that you are employed in that field.

  25. Steve Toll
    30. January 2013 at 20:58

    Iverson: DIKEMBE
    PER – 22.5 PER-19.7
    True Shooting Percentage 48% TS%-58.4%
    Offensive Rating 105 Off Rat 122
    Defensive Rating 106 Def Rat 102
    Offensive Win Shares 1.9 Off Win Shares 2.4
    Defensive Win Shares .9 Def Win Shares 1.3
    Win Share Per 48 .130 WS48 .184

    These are each players numbers from the 2001 playoffs, Dikembe played 97.5% of the minutes that Iverson did

    Someone please explain how Iverson was better

  26. Jeff McMenamin
    30. January 2013 at 21:11

    Steve,

    Haaaaa someone’s feelings are hurt.

    You just said…

    “In what world is defensive rating a competent stat that anyone can refer to when attempting to quantify aa players defensive capabilities? You are implying that it is one of note. Fact, it is extremely minisclue.”

    Then you said…
    “Iverson: DIKEMBE
    Defensive Rating 106 Def Rat 102″

    I love how much you are blatantly hypocritical of your points and don’t take notice. If it’s so miniscule, why did you just use it in a comparison??

    RAPM and WS are exactly what I think they are.

    Explain this comparison if this is the only one you’ll acknowledge?

    “The only 2 that fit that criteria is Chandler+Melo and Chandler is clearly better.”

    You use advanced stats to try and strengthen your arguments time and time again (incorrectly I might add), and you also never explain them. When I bring up a valid argument to you, you get defensive and refuse to answer it. How is Chandler better than Melo?

    Why did the Knicks organization give up half their team to get him? Why is he being paid $6 million more than Chandler?

    I’m all ears…Seems like someone can shoot a lot of clips but never hit the target.

  27. Rick
    31. January 2013 at 00:38

    I would hate to get in the middle of this Philadunkia sports writer battle, but I do think Jeff has a lot of good points and he took it to your “field of expertise” Steve. I for one cannot get into all those stats, I just know the game from playing and watching a ton of basketball. So I commend Jeff for doing his research on the stats that Steve always wants to go to. I believe steve needs to start answering some of these questions and backing up some of these things that he is saying though.

    Steve,

    You do tend to stray away from questions that you are not comfortable answering. I like watching and participating in the debates with you and the others on the site, but when someone catches you on something, you don’t acknowledge it. It’s like you pick and choose certain things to address when I know you read the whole comment. I hope you were saying chandler had a better stat somewhere amongst all those stats and not that he was a better player because you would be really taking it to far in that case. I’m sure that wasn’t the case so I’ll give you a pass on that. And please do not say anything on here that you would not say on national T.V, you are insulting our intelligence. Mutombo over Iverson….. thats like saying Gasol over Kobe

  28. Jon in LA
    31. January 2013 at 01:51

    Steve,

    Why would a team’s cap room have anything to do with comparing two players? Based on what you normal what you normally say, you would chose the guy with similar numbers that’s 9 million dollars cheaper.

    And if we are talking about the Sixers, after resigning Bynum, we can keep ET. We couldn’t have signed both Bynum and Iggy. But if ET is putting up similar numbers and plus we get a quality center, isn’t that an improvement?

  29. Joe
    31. January 2013 at 07:47

    Steve Toll,

    If you believe this:

    “In what world is defensive rating a competent stat that anyone can refer to when attempting to quantify aa players defensive capabilities? You are implying that it is one of note. Fact, it is extremely minisclue.”

    Then you can’t claim that either WS or WS/48 are credible metrics, either.

    Thanks,

    Joe.

  30. JJ
    31. January 2013 at 08:28

    hahaha great reading!

    jeff>steve……..so far?

  31. Rob Y
    31. January 2013 at 08:29

    Jeff,

    You make a valid argument about ET being on a new team, new position, etc but it is not as drastic as the move Iggy made. First off, ET has been playing the 2 spot recently with SwaggyP starting. Also, we pretty much have the same team as last year except one should expect ET’s numbers to sky-rocket once Iggy left, not decrease. Other than that, the only other real difference was the departure of LouWill who took up minutes for ET as well. If you compare our team to last year : Jrue/Meeks (another departure that should HELP ET’s numbers)/Iggy/Brand/Hawes + Thad/Lavoy/LouWill – it really isn’t that much different than Jrue/ET/Jrich(2spot occasionally)-Swaggy-Wright/Thad/Hawes + Lavoy + non-factors.

    ET is in or near his prime; he is simply too slow, unintelligent, and has unrealistic expectations for himself (Dreaming big will do more harm than good). He will also demand way more money once his contract is up and the $9mn difference will be invalid after it expires. I would way rather pay Iggy $14mn than have Turner and JRich/Wright/SwaggyP.

    Steve,

    It is funny how hypocritcal you are in your arguments as Jeff pointed out above. Goes to show ORTG and DRTG are new, possibily somewhat irrelevant stats that need adjustment given AI is higher defensively rated than Mutumbo and lower offensively (Also these ratings only come from the 2001 playoffs- a relatively small sample size).

    Mutumbo was a great player and will be a first ballot HOF, along with AI, but in the 2001 season, Mutumbo was already over the hump (He was what, like 35 that season? Could’ve been 50 for all we know).

    “Readers don’t like Steve because he acts like a know-it-all. When he’s blatantly wrong, he won’t acknowledge it and continue to defend himself like he’s still right.” -Yuupp

    Pointing fingers aside: – nice win by the 7-6 last night although it scares me that the Celtics manhandled the Kings. I don’t want to make too outlandish of a statement here, but I don’t think Rondo’s injury will affect the Celtics as much as everyone think it will (in the regular season) as long as their other pieces remain healthy (which will be tough).

    As for the Raptors-Grizzlies-Detrioit trade: In all, it looks like a pretty beneficial trade for most of the teams involved. I would like to hear people’s reactions to how this trade affects the Sixers chances of making the 8 seed.

    Highlights (Minus Austin Daye/Hamid Habbibibibibibi):

    Raptors- Got Gay
    Grizzlies- Got Ed Davis/Tayshaun Prince
    Detroit- Got Calderon

    Quick glance, I think Grizzlies got the best deal as the Raptors let go of Ed Davis and Calderon (Raptors probably got the worst of it). Detroit also benefitted finally having a solid PG BUT giving up one of the center pieces and veteran leaders of the team in Tayshuan Prince.

    ***For this year, not too bad for Toronto and if anything slightly good. Grizzlies needed more bench and showed they can play well w/o Gay in the playoffs so I believe it is good for them both short and long term. Detriot benefitted short term but who knows how long Calderon will stay effective although he seems like the Steve Nash type who’s age won’t affect his ability compared to the norm.***

    Reactions?

  32. Rob Y
    31. January 2013 at 08:36

    Also, I know we could not have gotten Bynum w/o giving up Iggy – I am simply stating how we need to find other players besides Jrue/Thad/Bynum/Wright/throwing SwaggyP in there just cause I want to believe that he can be a beast on the offensive end (admittingly it is potentially too optimistic). Finally Lavoy put up a decent game.

  33. Jeff McMenamin
    31. January 2013 at 11:05

    Steve,

    Hmm…Carmelo just set a Knicks’ franchise record with his 30th straight 20 point game. You’re right though, Chandler is better……
    http://scores.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=400278393

    Also, Jrue>>>J Wall last night.

    I thought you said the Wizards were also a better team than the Sixers. What happened to that?

    Your hole keeps getting deeper and deeper. The rope to get yourself out is nearly out of sight.

  34. Rob Y
    31. January 2013 at 11:11

    Wizard with Wall are = to Sixers without Bynum. Spread was -4 last night. Home team in Bball gets 4pts

  35. Rick
    31. January 2013 at 13:31

    Rob,

    If we let the raptors catch us than we are not supposed to be in the playoffs. We are like 3.5 games ahead of them in the standings, and boston is 6.5 games ahead of them. Its either us Boston or the Bucks in the 7th or 8th spot. Boston has a tough february after this orlando game as do the Bucks and I guess Philly too. I believe this month will be very telling as to who will/should be in the 7th and the 8th spot.

    I also believe Nick Young is coming around, I believe he just needed more opportunities to do what he does best, which is to score.

  36. Mountain Drew
    31. January 2013 at 13:43

    Steve, it is time to stop being so arrogant. You even completely ignored someone who spent a long time writing a comment about stats and its weaknesses! We are honestly questioning your knowledge, and you will have to explain your logic in the stats you use to back it up, because you keep running and hiding. Also, don’t put yourself above Jeff, the man is asking good questions. Purveyor of truth, the only one that knows basketball… Better than all GMs, coaches and fans? Don’t you ever question your own knowledge? Move out of that basement and look at things from a different perspective steve.

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