Posted by: Jake Fischer
05/01/13 12:23 pm EST

Last night, I watched the Denver Nuggets narrowly defeat the Golden State Warriors in the Pepsi Center in order to extend their first round series to a sixth game.  Naturally, I found the Warriors play through the first four games of the series refreshing and thrilling.  But, in Game 6, the Nuggets morphed into the Pistons of the “Bad Boys”  era with a touch of  pop and pizazz and secured a win.  The player who pushed the Nuggets to the win last night was former Sixer Andre Iguodala.

The once heir apparent to Allen Iverson, Iguodala dropped a line of 25 points, 12 boards and 7 assists in 40 minutes of play on 10-17 shooting from the field.  On the series, Iguodala is averaging 16.8 points, 7.8 rebounds and 5.2 assists per game while shooting 53.4 percent from the floor in 40.2 minutes per (Those stats are much improved over his regular season numbers of 13, 5 & 5 and 45% shooting from the field).

With his playoff averages, Iguodala would have ranked second on the Sixers in points, tied-second in rebounds, second in assists, second in field goal percentage and first in minutes during the regular season. And, the dude is doing this in the playoffs no less against a stingy defensive team in the Dubs.

Regardless, I still say the Philadelphia 76ers are better off with Iguodala elsewhere.

Sure, he can go on hot streaks where he puts up insane Lebron-like numbers for a five-game stretch.  He’s definitely a top-10 perimeter defender in the NBA.  He can knock down open threes when he steps into them and doesn’t fade away.  But, he’s paid $15 million and Andre Miller is Denver’s closer.

Ask George Karl, and if he were to answer candidly, I’m sure he may even say that Ty Lawson is also a more viable option as a closer than Iguodala as well.  What about Danilo Gallinari? He might be too.

The fact of the matter is that the Denver Nuggets have been in the playoffs for 10-straight years.  That streak is good for second in the entire Association behind only the San Antonio Spurs.

Denver is an organization that has reached a Western Conference Finals just four years ago, an organization that can afford to pay a super-role player superstar money because he’s surrounded by a plethora of above-average role players.

In Philadelphia, Iguodala would have been the “star” among a crop of below-average NBA players. He and Jrue Holiday would have bumped heads with each other and Doug Collins on a daily basis that most likely would have led to Collins’ resignation in February.  Keeping Iguodala on the Sixers wouldn’t have made them a 57-win team and a top-3 seed in a conference like the Nuggets.

So, to all of you that are complaining about the Nuggets’ success with Iguodala and that the Sixers shouldn’t have given up on him: stop.

His time in Philly was done.  And the 76ers are better off for letting him go.


40 Responses to “‘DRE — YOU CAN STILL HAVE HIM”

  1. steve
    1. May 2013 at 12:55

    After the abysmal return we got for him and nik v…….probably not. In hindsight, why couldn’t we have shipped off some like Turner who is an absolute joke at this point.

  2. Skywalker
    1. May 2013 at 13:28

    All this talk means nothing…….The Sixers biggest issue their management! ( Or mis-management! )this resembles some good ole boy mess…..

    They give up on players to quickly……

    Doug Collins was never a good fit…..He and also, “Phil J.” are only good with “set veteran teams”……Not good at developing young talent…..

    There are a few players in the League that still should be on the Sixers roster……. “Vu”, Andre Miller, N. Mohammed, Harkless……maybe Sam Dalembert or Elton Brand? This current Sixer team lacks toughness!

    I also, think everyone has to ask themselves what they want from a Sixer Team????? If it’s just to make the playoffs and be a first round casualty……..wasn’t the last team just that? ( E.Brand, S.Hawes, A.Iguodala, L.Williams, J. Meeks…..with latter being subs…. )

  3. Mickey
    1. May 2013 at 13:36

    Just because he’s not a closer doesn’t mean he’s no good… at least with him the sixers were a top defensive team… and since Iverson he was the player that brought the sixers the most success… why not give him a little credit…
    He’s gonna win a title before the sixers do anyway !!!

  4. Steve Toll
    1. May 2013 at 13:46


    You seem to forget that Nik Vucevic, Mo Harkless and a 1st rd pick left town with Iguodala.

    Jason Richardson was/is part of the Bynum fiasco as well.

    Lebron, Iggy, Tony Allen, Bradley, Bledsoe are the 5 best perimeter defenders in that order.

    All of the above is something you seem to be oblivious about.

    FYI: This past off season I pegged Vuc and Hark as ~10 year NBA starters.

  5. George
    1. May 2013 at 13:53

    Iguodala has never been a closer, but as a second or third option he is flat out awesome. Where was Klay Thompson? Look at Iggy’s stat line in a do or die game, problem in Philly was his surrounding talent not him. He’s not a number 1, but he makes any team he’s on better. It is better he’s on another team because he couldn’t carry Philly, nor did he deserve the beating he took here (or the contract probably, but that’s a different argument)

  6. Adam
    1. May 2013 at 14:01


  7. Steve Toll
    1. May 2013 at 16:27


    Because the people making the decisions did a terrible job


    They also gave Mo Speights away and SHOCKER he turned into a decent NBA player at age 25 which is consistent with player improvement curves of guys his size.


    Iggy was worth his contract during his 4 years in Philly.

    Here are his percentile based numbers over the 4 years from 2009-2012

    91% in Scoring
    96% in Assists
    88% in Rebounding
    99% in DEFENSE

    Here are his total output numbers during those 4 years in the ENTIRE NBA

    32nd in Points

    44th in Rebounds

    15th in Assists

    7th in Steals

  8. Matt
    1. May 2013 at 19:19


    This post is dead on. Nobody is saying iggy isn’t a good to very good player, but he’s NOT great. He was worth the money the first few years of his contract, but, to expand on what you said, think about this:

    His last two years are for $31,000,000+. That’s an insane amount of money to pay a guy who is an at best 2nd option, but more often, a 3rd option. He’s not a closer.

    He’s the 21st highest paid player in the league! He’s definitely not the 21st best overall player.

    Thanks for bringing the sanity. Would we have been better with iggy? SURE, but would we have won anything with him this year? Nope. Next year when he’s owed 16+ mil? Nope. So it was good to get out from that money.

  9. Jeff McMenamin
    1. May 2013 at 21:35

    Great article Jake,

    I agree with everything you say. They echo what pretty much any Sixers fan would say who has watched the Sixers closely over the past 10 seasons.

    Iggy was a good player and I definitely lauded his defense and athleticism on countless occasions. It was his offense that was the problem and when your goal in a basketball game is to score more points than the other team, this always doomed the Sixers. Come playoff time you need a scorer and he was never that guy.

    Take Allen Iverson vs. Iguodala…
    Iverson’s playoff record was 29-33 with the Sixers, 1 Finals appearance, 30 PPG
    Iguodala’s playoff record was 13-22 with the Sixers, 13.7 PPG

    It’s clear who deserved the money the Sixers gave him and who did not. Only Steve Toll would say otherwise.

    Speaking of Toll. We have our third bet. I’m 2-0 so far in our bets. He bet me that the Nuggets would win tomorrow night, I said the Warriors.

    If Warriors win he has to call me the king for the rest of the offseason and vice versa. His self-proclamation days are almost over folks…

  10. Steve Toll
    1. May 2013 at 21:37


    What if I was to tell you that Elton Brand, Gilbert Arenas, Brandon Roy, Baron Davis and Rashard Lewis were all being paid more than Iguodala this year?

    Iggy is the 26th highest paid player in the NBA and was UNQUESTIONABLY one of the 26 most valuable players in the NBA this year

    Was it good to get out of Vucevic+Harkless+1st rd pick and get into Bynum+J-Rich?

    Great job continuing your streak of being wrong about everything

  11. Jake Fischer
    1. May 2013 at 21:47


    Thanks for reading, first of all!

    My thoughts on all these above comments are this:

    -I did not say it was worth giving up and losing guys like Nik Vuc or Mo Harkless to get rid of Iguodala. If you follow me on Twitter (@JakeLFischer) or have read my articles, you know that I have a man crush on Nik and wish to god they didn’t trade him.
    -Iguodala would have been this team’s number one player and he’s not. I don’t care if he’s a great number 3 player, that’s not what he was paid to do in Philly.
    -Iguodala will never win a championship he continues to be paid what he is paid. He will kill the cap of a team that will pay him $16 million to be a third guy.
    -The Sixers would have been a 6 or 7 seed at best with Iguodala this year… and would have lost in the first round. Big woop.
    -Steve Toll only cares about tests and doesn’t ever use the eye test.

    Thanks y’al.

  12. Steve Toll
    1. May 2013 at 22:38


    I NEVER AGREED TO THAT. If you want to put up $5,000 too, we can do the “king for the offseason” bet as well


    Iggy was the best player on a team that won more games than CP3’s Clippers, Gasol’s Grizz, D12’s Lakers and every other team in the NBA except Miami, OKC and SAS

    Getting rid of Vucevic+Harkless+1st rd pick WAS PART OF IGUODALA LEAVING.

    You can’t discount that and you continue to do so.

    Iggy+Vuc+Harkless were more valuable than their total salaries of under $18 million. They were traded together and their production is therefore tied together.


    Every team the past 25 years that has won an NBA title has had a top 20 All-Time player except the Detroit Pistons with Wallace 2x, Billups, Rip, Prince.

    Iguodala could have been the 2 or 3 option on EVERY ONE OF THOSE TEAMS

  13. LarryM
    1. May 2013 at 22:39

    Steve Toll’s antics are increasingly unreadable as he ups the ante on the crazy with every post and comment (the GM post recently was a new low). But for those of you who think that Toll’s irrational man crush on Iguodala is rooted in advanced statistics, you should know that the advanced statistics which Toll purportedly bases his opinions don’t begin to support his irrational opinion about Iguodala – they demonstrate that Iguodala is what most reasonable fans believe – good, even very good, but far from elite. Just to use one example, using WS/48 Iguodala is 50th among active players. Which is good, but hardly at the elite level Toll claims. He’s WORSE using other advanced metrics (e.g., PER).

    The arguments that Toll DOES make for Iguodala are silly and easily refuted. The problem is that the people knowledgeable enough to counter Toll’s arguments either (a) long ago gave up on this site, or (b) are smart enough not to get sucked into debating a delusional psychopath (I’m being generous) who always has to have the last word.

  14. Adam
    1. May 2013 at 22:46

    Iggy being worth his contract when he was in philly is a somewhat irrelevent point.

    His contract and brands prevented the sixers from being bad enough to add talent via the draft and hamstrung the team financially so that they could not add adequate talent through FA

  15. LarryM
    1. May 2013 at 22:52

    Just to give an example – people see Toll say something like “[Iguodala]was UNQUESTIONABLY one of the 26 most valuable players in the NBA this year,” and they assume that Toll must have SOME basis for such a confident statement. And since he OBVIOUSLY isn’t one of the top 26 players in the NBA by any traditional measures, people assume that Toll must be relying upon advanced metrics.

    But those metrics, far from supporting Toll’s opinion, show that Iguodala was a roughly average NBA player this year. He was 152nd in PER, 190th in WS/48, 76th in raw WS (simply a factor of playing a lot of minutes at an average level of play), 204th in OrRtg and 186th in DRtg.

    He’s had better seasons, mind you, but he’s never been elite.

  16. Steve Toll
    2. May 2013 at 00:39


    Iguodala’s On/Off numbers, RAPM, Roland Rating and recent selection to the Olympic Team would seem to show that you are wrong. Throw in that Iguodala is in the top 1% on NBA defenders and that is more proof you are wrong. Playing the most minutes of the team with the 4th most wins in the NBA, would also be more proof that you are wrong.

    Name 26 players who were more valuable than Iguodala this past season, I could use a good laugh

  17. Joe
    2. May 2013 at 08:10

    Steve Toll,

    I’d be interested to know why you are willing to take Iguodala’s RAPM, Roland Rating and On/off numbers into account but not his PER, WS/48, ORtg and DRtg. What is it about the methodology behind these measures that makes you think that LarryM is wrong when he says that Iggy is a roughly average NBA player according to them?

    For the record, I think Iggy’s a great player and a great fit for the Nuggets, and if they lose this series against the Warriors then I think that’s down to George Karl. I do agree with you on some matters, but I want to know why you think that someone who assesses Iggy based on his WS/48, PER and O+DRtg’s would be wrong to do so.

  18. Matt
    2. May 2013 at 09:45


    First off, I specifically was speaking to jake. So stop interrupting conversations.

    Secondly, learn to read, did I say it was a good decision to get rid of big Nik etc? Did I mention them anywhere? Nope. So if you can’t respond correctly, just shut up. Stop trolling and get a life.

    Just so you can see it, I’ll repeat what I wrote (to jake, not you):

    Iggy not worth 2 years at $31+ million.


    I agree with you about little trolly is just unreadable. He wants to be skip bayless so badly it’s laughable. He’s not even a poor man’s skip bayless. It is really coming to the point of not wanting to read this site bc he just trolls. He has nothing based in fact and only posts to instigate.

  19. LarryM
    2. May 2013 at 10:12

    But Joe, it’s worse than that. The metrics he cites are all (essentially) the same thing (variations on plus/minus ratings), they all share central obvious characteristics which makes them poor metrics for for player evaluation/comparison, AND, in the past season, at least, Iguodala doesn’t even rank that highly in them. Moreover, if one looks at the rankings in those stats, it becomes pretty obvious pretty quickly that they are deeply flawed measures. He’s been better in the past; he does grade out better using variations on plus/minus than he does on other metrics. The point is that MOST knowledgeable advocates of advanced metrics would agree that the various versions of plus/minus are a poor way to evaluate a player’s overall contribution.

    The bottom line is that the advanced basketball metrics community does not take plus minus rankings seriously as a player evaluation metric.

    Toll is the expert at this kind of crap – he strings together a bunch of “facts,” some not relevant at all, some marginally relevant, some not even true, and just assumes, correctly, that no one is going to actually check and/or call him on it. It’s an old debaters trick, throw a bunch of garbage against the wall and hope something sticks.

    I don’t have the time or inclination to further dissect his absurd recent post, but none of his claims hold up (i.e., they are false, they don’t really buttress his argument, or both). And he RELIES on that. He knows that the people smart enough to demolish his arguments are ALSO smart enough not to waste hours doing so.

    Look, the mere fact that people debate this issue seriously on this site is a sign of either (1) Toll’s delusions spreading through the community on this site, or (2) a tremendously successful troll on Toll’s part. No one (except Toll, assuming he is sincere) thinks Iguodala is an elite player (as opposed to very good). Iguodala doesn’t think that. Iguodala’s mom doesn’t think that. No one thinks that, except possible Steve Toll.

  20. Adam
    2. May 2013 at 11:25

    First of all, if u wanna talk value, iggy is the 3rd or 4th best player on his own team. Lawson, miller, and maybe gallo and faried all contribute to WINNING more than iguodala does due to their ability to score in multiple ways (except faried)….

    Iggy is invaluable to that team as a defensive role player who can also handle the ball and hit the break.

    No one is saying iggy isnt good, but he isnt a guy who gets 12-16mil…. Hes a super-role player.

    His value is soley related to who he has around him.

    And he is def not on of the 26 (id say 40) best players in the league.

  21. Steve Toll
    2. May 2013 at 11:28


    Defense happens to be 1/2 of the game and Iggy happens to be in the top 1% in that area.

    The Nuggets had one of the ~5 toughest schedules in the NBA.

    Iggy had the toughest assignment every single night.

    PER underrates wing creation in the form of assists

    There are far more indicators of a players value than WS48, PER, and 0+D Rating. For the public, they are decent metrics. In reality, there is a ton more going on privately and the ‘secret stats’ happen to show that Iggy is ELITE

  22. Steve Toll
    2. May 2013 at 12:53


    Name 26 players more valuable that Iguodala this season.



  23. LarryM
    2. May 2013 at 13:46

    Again, realize here that Steve Toll is the only person in the world, including Iggy, Iggy’s mother, and Iggy’s coach, who think he is elite. So some context there.

    The defensive argument is stupid on several counts, more on that below, but even if true, wouldn’t prove much, given that Iggy is probably not among the top 100 NBA players offensively and was 70th in rebounding this past year. Defense alone does not make a player elite.

    As for top 1% defensively, he keeps SAYING that, but no one seems to agree. Top 1% implies top 3 or 4 players defensively in the league (comparing him to all players active at any given time), or the best defensive player in the league (comparing him to regulars only). What basis is there for saying he is one of the 3 or 4 best defensive players in the league? Inherently somewhat subjective, but if we go by defensive player of the year voting, he certainly isn’t top 1%. He was 9th this past year. He was 6th and 8th the two prior years. Before that, he was in the top 10 exactly zero times.

    There are advanced metrics for defense as well, and Iggy is nothing special by those metrics. He’s been a top 10 defender in the NBA only once by those metrics (2011-2012).

    Moreover, defense is 50% of the game only if you merge rebounding into defense and offense. But Iggy as a defensive rebounder is nothing special; if that was incorporated into some sort of defensive ranking, he would be much lower. (There’s also a deeper argument that a superlative defensive player in the modern NBA has less of an effect on the outcome than a superlative offensive player, but that’s a significant subject in its own right.)

    Sure there’s more to life than PER and W48. They do, however, happen to be FAR more reliable measures than the various plus minus rating metrics, which, for measuring player value, are a bit of a joke.

    But this is my point – this is what Toll does – he craps out 6 sentences, not taking any time or effort to actually produce anything that makes sense, but it takes a longish post and several minutes to refute his stinking pile of $hit. It’s not worth it, and smart people soon realize that. Thus leaving the floor to Toll, as I am going to do, because I’m too smart to waste any more time on it.

  24. Adam
    2. May 2013 at 14:20

    Toll, answer me this, if iggy is so elite, why couldnt he ever carry the sixers to the 2nd round in a terrible conference? And last seasons miracle rose injury doesnt count as a 2nd round appearance. Why, also, did “elite” iggy completely dissapear offensively in the playoffs last season?

    Let me guess, its all dougs fault, iggy gets no blame for his terrible play.

  25. Steve Toll
    2. May 2013 at 16:59

    Iggy is paid 14.7 million this season.





    Name 100 players who were more productive than Iggy in 12-13.

    Kobe has been bad on defense since at least 07-08. He was first team all defense in 08,09,10,11 and 2nd team in 2012.


    Keep writing long winded comments that are just blowing smoke with no substance.



    I’ve answered that question infinite times.

  26. Matt
    2. May 2013 at 20:12

    Iggy is paid more than 21% of the nuggets payroll and next year he’ll be the 15th highest paid player next year. You know who will be 14th on the list? Durant by only 500k.

    Durant >>>>>> Iggy

    No way Iggy should be paid as the number 1 player on ANY team.

  27. Jon
    2. May 2013 at 21:51

    None of us think iggy is a bad player. I’m a huge iggy fan but he’s not a top 12 player in this league. He’s not the kind of player who will get your team over the hump.

  28. Adam
    3. May 2013 at 09:33

    Blaming doug collins is not an answer.

    If anything he gets only 30% of the blame…. Iggys been taking terrible pull up jumpers long before collins, and he continues to do so in denver.

  29. Joe
    3. May 2013 at 20:05

    Steve Toll,

    ‘Secret stats’ pique my interest – are these your stats, or those of others? I understand that you don’t want to publish your own numbers because of intellectual property issues, but I might have a go at creating my own ‘secret stat’ and put an advanced stat on defense together and publish my methodology somewhere. I don’t really care about intellectual property and other people profiting from my work because I make $$$ in my job as an economist, this is just purely for my own interest. If I bother to do this, I’ll put a link out for your perusal.

    As an aside, you originally asked for 26 players who were more valuable than Iggy in 12-13; now you’re asking LarryM for 100 that were more productive? Assuming that production and value are synonymous (and I don’t see why they shouldn’t be) – you just made Iggy almost four times less elite.

  30. Steve Toll
    3. May 2013 at 20:18


    I want 26 players who were more valuable overall and 100 players more valuable offensively.

    I only asked what he was insinuating knowledge of

  31. LarryM
    4. May 2013 at 09:30

    Okay, two more comments. Tempted to do more to highlight Toll’s ongoing melt down, but smart people don’t need ME to point it out, and non-smart people probably won’t get it.

    First, the “secret stats” comment shouldn’t pique anyone’s interest. It’s really just about the most self revealing comment Toll has ever made, and screams “I don’t have a case.”

    But on to 100 and 26. Obviously a silly request – no one is going to l;st 26 players or 100 players in a comment section, even if he had the time. But let’s tackle those questions indirectly.

    Let’s start with ORtg. Not a perfect stat, but not bad. In 2012-2013, 210 players rank higher than Iggy. If you want a list of players more productive than Iggy on offense, just go over to http://www.basketball-reference.com/ and look at the top 150 players on that list. See, I’m being generous here and only going with 150 rather than 210. So I was wrong about 100 players. More like 150 to 200.

    Do other stats, analytic or otherwise, back the same conclusions? Yes. Here is where Iggy ranked this past season in various stats:

    TS% 235th
    ORtg 211th
    OWS 114th (benefits from high number of minutes)
    ORB% 257th
    Pts/gm 91st (benefits from high number of minutes)
    FG% 185th
    3Pt% 212th

    Aside from Pts/gm (barely) the only offensive stats where he is in the top 100 are assist related stats, and he isn’t THAT good in those stats:

    Asst% 74th
    Asst/Gm 32nd (benefits from high number of minutes)
    Asst/36 60th

    Heck, using ORtg, Iggy isn’t one of the top 10 players offensively ON HIS OWN TEAM. I’ll grant you that three of those players didn’t play enough for that stat to mean much, but still, he clearly isn’t one of the top 5 best offensive players on his own team.

    As for overall ranking, I’m not going to go into the same level of detail, but he’s 75th in WS, 191st in WS48, and 150th in PER. Imperfect stats, yes, but, to account for that, and to bend over backwards to be fair, let’s just take the top 50 players in WS as a list of players CLEARLY better than Iggy last year. IMO he ranks oven lower than that, but I’m trying to be generous. In fairness, he was better before this year.

    As an offensive player, Iggy is Nick Young. (And would be significantly WORSE than Young but for his play making abilities.) Iggy’s defense makes him a good player despite that. Maybe even very good, though honestly the closer I look at him the weaker the case for that looks. But without the defense, he isn’t even a starter in the league.

  32. Steve Toll
    5. May 2013 at 15:57

    Not even a starter on offense?



  33. Steve Toll
    5. May 2013 at 19:12

    Iguodala will end up beinf more valuable to Philadelphia than Derrick Rose to Chicago in his first 4 years of his new extension.

    What else is there to say?

  34. LarryM
    5. May 2013 at 22:23

    The question, Toll, is whether you’re that stupid, or whether you think the people here are that stupid or both. Your pointing to SIX games, versus an 80 game season. Do you not understand the concept of sample size? You have to be the least statistically literate person I have ever encountered.

    His 2012-2013 TS%: .520. Some of the 234 players who did better: Nick Young (.525), Harrison Barnes (.526), Arron Affalo (.527), Damian Wilkins (.533). I could go on and on.

  35. Steve Toll
    6. May 2013 at 01:44



    Explain this link (for instance 7X All-Star ALLEN IVERSON)

    Tell me your thoughts on Jrue Holiday

    This gonna b gooooooood

  36. Steve Toll
    6. May 2013 at 01:49

    How much credit does Iggy get for Denver’s 2.2 NET points per 100 possession improvement this season?

    Please explain how Philly with a -3.2 points per possession differential this year, compared to +4.7 in 11-12 could have been better than last years team even with a healthy Bynum?

    Are you insinuating that Bynum is worth 8pts per 100 possessions!?!?!

  37. Jon in LA
    6. May 2013 at 23:10

    This back and forth is so great to watch. Steve pulling out this ridiculous stats and not answering Larry is wonderful.

  38. Steve Toll
    7. May 2013 at 01:01

    Jon in LA,

    I’m not pulling out anything ridiculous, LarryM, is just an epically moronic clown.

    Wait for him to answer this:


    Explain this link (for instance 7X All-Star ALLEN IVERSON)

    Tell me your thoughts on Jrue Holiday

    This gonna b gooooooood

  39. Steve Toll
    7. May 2013 at 11:17




  40. Jon in LA
    7. May 2013 at 17:50


    You responded to Larry’s claim that Iggy isn’t good at offense by posting a six game sample of playoff games that INCLUDED REBOUNDS as a criteria. How is that an answer to Iggy as an offensive player?

    And your other post? Are you now just trying to say, “Well, AI is worse, so Iggy is good?” I don’t even get it.

    You’re not defending your position. You’re just posting random things that have very little to do to what Larry is claiming. It’s hilarious.

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